Good shirtmaker in UK

[andreyb]

I thought you were a Budd man, Andrey?

http://www.styleforum.net/t/36514/folde ... st_5730189

Andrey

[Kayak81]

The only minor complaint I have about Sean, is that it's been a bit of a challenge dealing with him administratively from a distance. He doesn't always answer emails and he sometimes makes delivery promises over the phone that he can't keep. This is only a problem if you're trying to get a delivery in time for a planned trip to London though, and shouldn't be an issue if you live in the area.

There has been an issue with my shirts more than one time. Once Mr. O'Flynn had forgotten all about the order, even if he had written the date of my next visit down: "Please drop me a mail just a week before your next visit". Then the shirts were made up, but back home the sleeves turned out to be much, much too short and this was some shirts after the initial one. Mr. O'Flynn agreed on sending them back after lengthening the sleeves, but in the end I had to collect them myself. Another time the cloth was out of stock, but you were only told as a reply on your notice of your next visit to London...

The contact with Mr. O'Flynn is very pleasant, though and in the end I am satisfied with the shirts that were made up.
But it has proven to be quite an adventure. Perhaps this is part of the true bespoke experience

I was trying to be diplomatic when I made that comment, but that was before I received my second order from Sean. I'm not quite as enthusiastic now.

When I placed my first order, I told Sean that I would be back in London for 2 days in about 2 months time, and asked if I could receive the shirt before my next visit. I was hoping to wear and wash the shirt a few times before my trip, and Sean assured me that this wouldn't be a problem. I didn't want to make a pest of myself, but I sent a few emails to Sean starting about 3 weeks later, and all of these were ignored. When I called, Sean always assured me that everything was on track, but he didn't actually complete the shirt until midday of the day I arrived in London.

Nevertheless, I was very happy with that first shirt. It fit better than any shirt I've ever owned, and the collar had a beautiful roll to it. I returned the next day, mentioned one small fit issue, and also requested some minor changes for my next order. Sean duly noted these changes and said he would incorporate them into subsequent shirts. I chose 5 fabrics for my next order, but asked Sean to hold off making the shirts until I had a chance to wash & wear the first shirt a few times, and Sean assured me that he wouldn't start the next order until he heard back from me.

A month later though, I found that my credit card had been charged for an additional 4 shirts, and when I called, I was told that Sean was on vacation for another week and a half. When I finally did speak with Sean, he told me that the shirts were made, but that he didn't have time to send them out before leaving on holiday. He apparently forgot that he was supposed to wait to hear from me before making the shirts, and he also forgot that I had ordered 5 shirts and not 4. Despite assurances that he would send the shirts out right away, it took Sean 3 weeks to send them to me. Again my emails were ignored during this period, and calls were greeted with assurances that the shirts would be sent out the next day. I suspect that the charge to my card was put through by mistake, and that Sean then scrambled to make up the shirts as quickly as possible. If this was actually the case, then I would have been happier if he had simply admitted the mistake, and given me a reasonable timeframe for delivery.

I just received the shirts today. All but one of the requested changes were made, but now there is no roll in the collar, the sleeve placket is shorter than that on the first shirt and the placket button is missing. I’m not sure yet, but one shoulder also looks a bit wider than the other. None of these are major issues, but it’s a bit distressing to see new problems creep up that didn’t previously exist.

I’m not quite sure what to do next. Despite the problems I’ve encountered, I’m still much happier with Sean than I was with Geneva. I guess I’ll speak to Sean to see if he can correct any of the problems, and possibly place another small order. I had originally planned to place one or two large orders once the fit was dialed in, but now I think it’s better to proceed with caution.

[Wasser50]

I use Turnbull ans Asser bespoke having given up with Dege for the same sort of poor service and inconsistency mentioned about Sean.

My experience with Turnbull has been exemplary, in both quality and service especially service the staff could not be more helpful. The only thing they don't do that I would like is hand stitching, although as pointed out to me by my other half I and people would only know by employing a magnifying glass. When paying c£250 plus for a shirt why should you have to accept or persevere with bad service or inconsistent quality.

[Julian]

I hate to post a mostly negative post but this forum is for sharing experiences so...

I can't recommend an alternative because I've only just started looking myself but, despite Sean O'Flynn's generally good reputation, I too have become disillusioned with him and would no longer recommend him. I have had three errors in my last two shirts from Sean, all clear failures to follow the specifications that he himself had written down when I placed my orders in person.

My first shirt came back with white MoP buttons rather than the smoked MoP that I had asked for, that was changed easily enough but the shirt had also been made with a front placket when the order clearly showed a flat front.

On the next order I asked for a lido collar and had a discussion with him in the shop when I placed the order regarding a top button and we agreed that one shouldn't be fitted on the basis that, if I felt that it looked odd without a top button, one could be added at a later stage. When the shirt came back there was a top button fitted and when I mentioned this he said that the shirt had looked odd without one so he had added it. Either this is true, in which case he denied me the chance of making that judgement myself (and he knows that I am local so easy for me to call in and have a look), or he was making up an excuse on the spot to try and explain away yet another deviation from the clearly documented (by him) instructions on the order sheet.

To make matters worse I strongly suspect that he also completely forgot to start the process for my last shirt since after 3 months I had to call him and subsequently, with no explanation or warning, I had my credit card debited about 5 weeks later (i.e. over 4 months after originally placing the order) at a price that was over 20% higher than the price originally agreed when the order was placed. I'm afraid that for me that's now three strikes (or more if you count the unannounced price increase and the delay) and he's out of the picture as far as I'm concerned.

For what it's worth I currently have Turnbull & Asser, Robert Whittaker (Dege & Skinner) and Stephen Lachter on my shortlist but I haven't visited any of them yet. I note Rob's (the starter of this thread's) preference for no minimum order and that is one advantage that Sean O'Flynn does have but I've personally decided that a minimum order seems to come with the territory when looking at full bespoke. The most onerous minimum order quantity that I've found out there amongst the London shirtmakers is Udeshi (whom a few people have recommended to me) with an 8 order minimum and the more benign end of the minimum order spectrum seems to be Emma Willis with a minimum order of 3. (For the avoidance of doubt, it's full bespoke that I've been looking at rather than MTM.)

- Julian

[alden]

I am not much in favor of minimums or industrial MTM masquerading as true artisan level bespoke. So it would be my suggestion for UKers to jump on a bus Gus, or a train or a plane and go to Paris, Naples or Rome to find real shirtmakers.

Pick Naples and instead of an eight shirt minimum (absurd) you can try eight different artisans with one shirt and determine which you like best. Flights are inexpensive, choose to go on a vacation and take the wife on a nice trip. Or if you are single you will likely find a wife while you are there. The chances of going right with a shirtmaker in Naples or Rome are like the chances of going wrong with a tailor there. So make shirts. And if you do not fly or are not daring, take the Eurostar to Paris to see Mary, Charvet or Lanvin.

What could be easier? Tell your bespoke (cough) mates in London to take their minimums on a long walk off a short plank!

Cheers

[stephenm]

I had six shirts made by Stephen Lachter. They were several weeks late, but that seems to be the norm for Savile Row (with one exception only in my experience).

They fit well. A couple were slightly too wide at the cuff, so slid over the hand if the cuff link had any slack. But they fit well.

Difficult to iron the collar and cuffs, there seems to be a little to much fabric, leaving a fold or crease.

Overall, very nice shirts, but not ecstatic about them (whereas I have at least three SR suits which I am really very, very pleased with).

Would I buy from Stephen again? Not sure. I have been given a strong recommendation to go to Mr O'Flynn, but having read this, not sure either.

[Rowly]

Courtot, Rue de Rennes, was discussed somewhere and as far as I remember, had no minimum order. Can anyone comment on the quality of service and product here?

[J.S. Groot]

I have had a few shirts made by Courtot; some years ago however. Monsieur and madame Courtot are both very friendly and pleasant to work with. The fit is decent, but not perfect, though it should be noted that the shirts were some of my first attempts as a bespeaker of clothes and as such my ability to articulate my needs was still in its infancy.

[andreyb]

Difficult to iron the collar and cuffs, there seems to be a little to much fabric, leaving a fold or crease.

Non-glued collars and cuffs... other makers who use them are not different in this regard.

Italians usually use glued ones, which are at least easier to iron.

As for which construction method is better in general, opinions differ -- a lot.

Andrey

[Frans]

I sent a few emails to Sean (...), and all of these were ignored.

Same experience here. Sometimes he answers, sometimes he does not at all.

he didn't actually complete the shirt until midday of the day I arrived in London.

Same here. Once I was asked to come back one hour later, as they were still working on the shirt.

A month later though, I found that my credit card had been charged for an additional 4 shirts (...) I suspect that the charge to my card was put through by mistake

No mistake. If you order more than one shirt, your card is charged before delivery or collect. In my case I was only charged for 1 shirt. True, you don't get any notice, but you'll find out

Despite assurances that he would send the shirts out right away, it took Sean 3 weeks to send them to me.

You must have called him. He did not send my shirts back, although that was what we he had told me he would do.

If this was actually the case, then I would have been happier if he had simply admitted the mistake, and given me a reasonable timeframe for delivery.

I did got apologies several times. But some minor additional costs resulting from a wrong shirt (e.g. sending it back registered) have been for me so far. Others might have it collected when it is their mistake, not yours.

I had originally planned to place one or two large orders once the fit was dialed in, but now I think it’s better to proceed with caution.

There is no guarantee that things will go better. New shirts might result in new issues
It seems as if Mr. O'Flynn is not really focussing on his business right now. Well, that is my experience so far

I am not much in favor of minimums or industrial MTM masquerading as true artisan level bespoke.

Dear Mister Alden, could you please elaborate on the masquerading? My shirtmaker showed me the individual pattern for me. Is this just re-interpreted into some main measurements and then sent to a factory?

[cathach]

I'm a fan of a non-fused collar as it is that bit more breathable on the skin (it seems to me). For those interested in Paris here are some links that may be of interest to francophone members. They have lists of shirtmakers in Paris.

http://bespoke.blog.lemonde.fr/category ... ur-mesure/
http://chatolufsen.blogspot.ie/search/l ... N%20FRANCE
http://depiedencap.leforum.eu/t2460-Blo ... mesure.htm

[Sky Blue Peter]

I used Frank Rostron for several years when I lived in Manchester, and always found them excellent, but I haven't used them for several years since moving to London. At that time they had no minimum order and were (relatively) reasonably priced. I have no experience of their attitude to customer-supplied fabrics, but they were very helpful in all other regards so I can't imagine there would be a problem.
I have recently had shirts made by Russell and Hodge in London - again no minimum order, and both helpful and reasonably priced. So far (after three shirts only, admittedly) all work has been on time and as specified. They confirmed they would be happy to work with LL linen shirtings too!

[Manself]

After ten years of having had shirts made in London, over which time I tried almost all the shirt makers, I have given up because I've experienced all the same problems that other members outline in this thread. In summary the shirtmakers were charming, the shirts were average at best, and the service was consistently, unbelievably bad.

So a week ago I took a day trip to Paris to meet Mary Frittolini for my first fitting. Having emailed her my measurements, and some posture photographs, five days earlier she presented me with a basted muslin shirt to try on - something that never happens in London. The muslin already fitted as well as many shirts I've had made by bespoke shirtmakers in the past. At my fitting the muslin shirt was extensively marked up with a pencil, pinned, and ripped apart. All the while Pierre Duboin, who was working with Mary (I think as an assistant/ advisor) snapped pictures of me wearing the shirt. He was astonished to hear that no one in London had ever shot an image of me.

I haven't yet received my first shirt from Mary, but having been measured and fitted it's clear that her way of working is entirely different to what goes on in London. Yes, London shirtmakers create individual patterns, but the care and attention that goes in to them is about 25% of the care that Mary put into my fitting, and that's before one takes into account the level of skill deployed in the work rooms. It's my guess that the biggest problem in London is that the girls in the workrooms - who seem largely to be outworkers - aren't very diligent and aren't really controlled by the shirtmakers. Long experience tells me that their tolerance over the length of cuffs is about 1/2"! And there seems to be no control over the timetable. Sean O'Flynn once told me that he couldn't even get the length of his own shirt sleeves right, so he just has his tailor cut his jacket sleeves short to make sure some shirt cuff is always visible! I'm currently going through the expensive process of having about the sleeve length of about a dozen bespoke shirts adjusted by the alteration tailor at my local branch of Jeeves of Belgravia (drycleaners). In some cases they were literally inches too long.

If someone knows of a good London shirtmaker I'd love to try them, but for now I'll be crossing the Channel when I need new shirts.
All of this prompts the question - where did it all go wrong for London shirtmakers? Surely there was a time when better options were available?

[Rowly]

After ten years of having had shirts made in London, over which time I tried almost all the shirt makers, I have given up because I've experienced all the same problems that other members outline in this thread. In summary the shirtmakers were charming, the shirts were average at best, and the service was consistently, unbelievably bad.

Thanks for a very interesting insight. Where the Architect of the garment uses outworkers whose exactness and craftsmanship is neither under his supervision nor his control...it begs the question as to whether all the measuring, marking and pattern making is nothing more than show business for the punters? These experiences have all been well documented for tailoring and shoe making also. There is nothing better than the person who measures you, makes for you , adjusts for you and finishes for you, taking a pride that he or she has taken full responsibility for leaving you satisfied and pleased with their work. It looks like that is what you will receive in Paris. I hope it works out for you.

[Wasser50]

Manself

I have no doubt your current experience I'm Paris will turn out great and I am also going to try the same process. However, I have to say that my experience with Turnbull has been excellent and the standard consistent. I have used Turnbull bespoke for about 3 years now having tried all the others in London, excluding emma wills, and I'm happy with their service and standard of shirt.

My reason for wanting to go to Paris is both the romance of travel and the interest in a more hand stitched shirt, but if you don't want to go to Paris try Turnbull bespoke. By the way my other half says I'm the fussiest person she has ever known when it comes to cloths, my tailor says the same!