What is the future of The London Lounge?
Postings seem fewer and fewer. Many seem more devoted to costume and other frivolities rather than to tailoring. What is going on? Will The London Lounge finally dissolve into desultory navel-gazing? Come on, argue with me.
That would be navel-gazing.
I %100 agree. I miss the old discussions on benchmade methods and fit. But the Bench Tailors that fueled these discussions are gone. It’s a sign of the times. Most of what I see today is glorified MTM. And many members today don’t know the difference. They used to know. We used to have extremely knowledgeable members on here. There was an article on “Brooklyn Tailors keeping the craft alive “ and I pointed out that ALL yes ALL are very obviously glorified MTM. Any real tailor would know in an instant. I just altered a “benchmade “ coat from one of these Tailors and was far far far from benchmade. It was fused and factory made. ..keeping the crap alive is more like it... But many disagreed with me. I just laugh. They don’t know. I do know. I just smile and know the truth. Go back and read the old posts.
Quite possibly a sign of the times? Even folk who don't have to work every waking hour seem more distracted in recent times. I'm sorry to say from the perspective of the UK, current politics is far more conducive to a sense of despair than evidence that the world is heading in the right direction – and general civility seems to have leapt out of the window.
LL is however something of an oasis away from such horrors. For my part, I find the conversation here fascinating. Not just the huge resource of technical knowledge concentrated in a few active members (especially emanating from upstate New York) but also because of the evident delight that almost everyone here takes from seeing well-made clothes.
Discussions about MTM versus true bespoke will continue for so long as people look beyond off-the-rail clothing. This forum provides a sartorial wormhole for the curious into the fantastic universe of true bespoke. It’s not just a question of becoming informed – enthusiasm is contagious and the curious will soon catch the bug if they spend any time here.
In my view, the modern world benefits from some of the most sophisticated garment making technology yet known, with the consequence that for many, very good clothes are available at affordable prices. I do not believe that this crowds out bespoke, but instead provides a springboard towards it. I think that MTM is merely another staging post along the way to the better destination of bespoke and is, again, no real threat to it.
You don't have to go too far along the bespoke road however before you realise that what counts way above a Portland stone and plateglass shopfront in London W1, is a relationship with a craftsman (or woman) which produces a superlative result – and this does not rely on the individual technical skill of some technician in an offsite workshop who never deals with the client.
I think that very many of the discussions we have on various topics – and particularly commenting on the latest masterpiece that has arrived in someone's wardrobe, can be framed as much in terms of the discussions that were had with the master tailor concerned, as with the stitching that resulted in the garment. It's human nature to contemplate and discuss relationships, and to my mind that's just what we do here.
There are many occasions when wearing a good suit in the right context causes me to reflect not so much on the depth of my turn-ups or the width of my lapel, but instead the fact that the piece has been made by someone I have come to know well over the last decade and a half and who has in turn come to know me – and as with all such good relationships, the fact that a very great deal of the communication between us doesn't actually need articulating.
I think Old Henry regularly reminds us quite correctly that one of the problems we do have however is the supply of expert tailors who might look to make their living outside of the premier shopping drags of the world's great cities. It would be very interesting to hear about real talent discovered (and I'm sure it exists there) in the likes of Eastern Europe, Latin America and Africa.
I am convinced that the true craft of tailoring is not dying out – but it is evolving.
LL is however something of an oasis away from such horrors. For my part, I find the conversation here fascinating. Not just the huge resource of technical knowledge concentrated in a few active members (especially emanating from upstate New York) but also because of the evident delight that almost everyone here takes from seeing well-made clothes.
Discussions about MTM versus true bespoke will continue for so long as people look beyond off-the-rail clothing. This forum provides a sartorial wormhole for the curious into the fantastic universe of true bespoke. It’s not just a question of becoming informed – enthusiasm is contagious and the curious will soon catch the bug if they spend any time here.
In my view, the modern world benefits from some of the most sophisticated garment making technology yet known, with the consequence that for many, very good clothes are available at affordable prices. I do not believe that this crowds out bespoke, but instead provides a springboard towards it. I think that MTM is merely another staging post along the way to the better destination of bespoke and is, again, no real threat to it.
You don't have to go too far along the bespoke road however before you realise that what counts way above a Portland stone and plateglass shopfront in London W1, is a relationship with a craftsman (or woman) which produces a superlative result – and this does not rely on the individual technical skill of some technician in an offsite workshop who never deals with the client.
I think that very many of the discussions we have on various topics – and particularly commenting on the latest masterpiece that has arrived in someone's wardrobe, can be framed as much in terms of the discussions that were had with the master tailor concerned, as with the stitching that resulted in the garment. It's human nature to contemplate and discuss relationships, and to my mind that's just what we do here.
There are many occasions when wearing a good suit in the right context causes me to reflect not so much on the depth of my turn-ups or the width of my lapel, but instead the fact that the piece has been made by someone I have come to know well over the last decade and a half and who has in turn come to know me – and as with all such good relationships, the fact that a very great deal of the communication between us doesn't actually need articulating.
I think Old Henry regularly reminds us quite correctly that one of the problems we do have however is the supply of expert tailors who might look to make their living outside of the premier shopping drags of the world's great cities. It would be very interesting to hear about real talent discovered (and I'm sure it exists there) in the likes of Eastern Europe, Latin America and Africa.
I am convinced that the true craft of tailoring is not dying out – but it is evolving.
How is the true craft evolving ? Into what is it evolving ?
I don't think the craft as such is evolving – from what I can see from my limited perspective, although perhaps some elements have changed, such as the need to work with lighter less substantial cloths more generally ?
What I meant by "evolution" relates to how tailoring is now supplied. It was not that long ago that every town had a tailor. My chap is one of only 2 true bespoke tailors in a small city. I think they have lasted this long because what they do is excellent. When I was younger (and skint) I used to buy suits and jackets for work in local charity shops (with a very discerning eye – obviously!) and regularly came across examples of the old tailors' work. In hindsight, not all of it was excellent but it was at least competent. I think what has happened is that the remaining tailoring expertise is now concentrated very much at the more skilled end of the trade – because perfectly acceptable factory made-to-measure has probably filled any gap below that level.
I think the real threat to true bespoke comes mainly from its tiny scale as an industry now compared to the past. The risk comes from an adequate means of training young tailors. I understand that there is no shortage of takers for such apprenticeships as are available – my daughter studied fashion as a degree, and postgrad employment in the Savile Row industry was regarded as quite a prize.
I think therefore the future of the most expensive true bespoke is probably assured – it is the provincial and 'Off-Row' provision that has a less certain future. In many respects this comes down to the economics of process. If (and please tell me if I'm wrong here) it takes about 60 hours to make a suit, and skilled craftsmen pay rates are about £25 per hour provincially in the UK – that's £1500 of labour plus £500 materials, making a nice round £2000 pricetag before any other overheads are taken into account. This is where the divergence occurs. If you are maintaining an organisational structure and premises such as you have on Savile Row then you will of course need to probably triple that £2k to make money out of the process. If however you are working out of your living room and taking less than craftsman's wages, you could produce the same product as substantially smaller price. The difficulty then comes in marketing an "unknown" name in an equally unlikely location as a true bespoke product, as it deserves.
This is perhaps where the Internet will help some – but not all. I think perhaps the evolution might come from skilled tailors at small-scale operating outside Western Europe/North America. The issue then is how you can capitalise on modern communications as a substitute to allow customers the full benefit of face-to-face interaction with the minimum of actual physical presence. This is perhaps where cheap air travel (for so long as it lasts!) may play a role?
What I meant by "evolution" relates to how tailoring is now supplied. It was not that long ago that every town had a tailor. My chap is one of only 2 true bespoke tailors in a small city. I think they have lasted this long because what they do is excellent. When I was younger (and skint) I used to buy suits and jackets for work in local charity shops (with a very discerning eye – obviously!) and regularly came across examples of the old tailors' work. In hindsight, not all of it was excellent but it was at least competent. I think what has happened is that the remaining tailoring expertise is now concentrated very much at the more skilled end of the trade – because perfectly acceptable factory made-to-measure has probably filled any gap below that level.
I think the real threat to true bespoke comes mainly from its tiny scale as an industry now compared to the past. The risk comes from an adequate means of training young tailors. I understand that there is no shortage of takers for such apprenticeships as are available – my daughter studied fashion as a degree, and postgrad employment in the Savile Row industry was regarded as quite a prize.
I think therefore the future of the most expensive true bespoke is probably assured – it is the provincial and 'Off-Row' provision that has a less certain future. In many respects this comes down to the economics of process. If (and please tell me if I'm wrong here) it takes about 60 hours to make a suit, and skilled craftsmen pay rates are about £25 per hour provincially in the UK – that's £1500 of labour plus £500 materials, making a nice round £2000 pricetag before any other overheads are taken into account. This is where the divergence occurs. If you are maintaining an organisational structure and premises such as you have on Savile Row then you will of course need to probably triple that £2k to make money out of the process. If however you are working out of your living room and taking less than craftsman's wages, you could produce the same product as substantially smaller price. The difficulty then comes in marketing an "unknown" name in an equally unlikely location as a true bespoke product, as it deserves.
This is perhaps where the Internet will help some – but not all. I think perhaps the evolution might come from skilled tailors at small-scale operating outside Western Europe/North America. The issue then is how you can capitalise on modern communications as a substitute to allow customers the full benefit of face-to-face interaction with the minimum of actual physical presence. This is perhaps where cheap air travel (for so long as it lasts!) may play a role?
It is a well-established fact that fora, after some time, achieve a sort of orthodoxy and high level of shared knowledge -- worked out through hundreds of posts and threads -- at which point the discussion becomes less intense and less frequent.
I, for one, really value the rarefied level of sartorial and textile knowledge on this site, even though I can only contribute minimally to it.
Long live LL.
I, for one, really value the rarefied level of sartorial and textile knowledge on this site, even though I can only contribute minimally to it.
Long live LL.
Melcombe, I see. Yes , “Skype fittings” is definitely the evolution of tailoring. I understand what you say. Yes yes.
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Screaminmarlon
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One thing I miss is the kind of discussions that gave birth to inspiration, for a fabric, a design or a garment.
Now it seems much faster: often the discussion is about to make it or not, less about what to make
Now it seems much faster: often the discussion is about to make it or not, less about what to make
I recently worked on a coat made from LL TW27 Herringbone Harris Tweed from 5 years ago. . It was the best Harris I’ve ever handled. I doubt it can be made today.
Oh ok. I love it. Thank you David.
That did make me laugh! Thank you OH.(On consideration you win
although I did use Google to check out how far Clayton is from Poughkeepsie, hopefully that's allowed)Best w's
David
Actually, Sackets Harbor. Shave off 40 minutes. 😂
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