New English Bespoke Shirtmaker: Wil Whiting

[alden]

BB

No. Scrap that collar. It is too open and small. You need to start from scratch.

You have a bit of a long, rugby ball head shape. I do too. So you need a much larger, wider collar to balance it. The wide splayed thin narrow points and low slung, smallish spread collar magnifies the rugby ball. You mitigate a tendency with its opposite. So a larger, higher, wider collar will do this. The vertical is tamed by the horizontal. It will bring more harmony to your image. If not we wind up looking like the Tin Man from Wizard of Oz..with a Rugby Ball tin head on a thin narrow platter.

download by The London Lounge, on Flickr

And that wide open thin bladed no tie space spread collar is common RTW. Every office clerk in London wears one. We need to go upmarket and let Windsor be our guide.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Thanks Michael. I asked for advice and examples and you sure delivered! Much obliged.

Next step will be to find a shirtmaker that can deliver this. I've received some tips already, and hope to get more from the members.

I won't scrap all my shirts accumulated over all these years (can't go naked either!), but it will be interesting to see if can find a shirtmaker who can provide a collar of this nature and also provide consistent results in the years to come.

BB

[hectorm]

Ok that will give you something to work on with your new shirtmaker.

And with your new neckties, BB. There's nothing wrong with yours right now, but once you discover that you need a more substantial four-in-hand to balance your new collars, you will find out that a broader-at-the-middle necktie is probably the only type that will achieve that knot and still land two blades of the same length.
I know, it seems endless.

Hectorm, the Connery tie knot you comment on is surely reflective of the era, non?

Yes, it is.
And so are Moore's jacket and tie. The early 80s in his case.
The real issue notwithstanding is not the fashion involved, but whether it's managed to a degree in which is still the most flattering to the wearer.

[Rob O]

Interesting to see how the absence of a higher collar markedly changes Prince Michael's appearance...



I see his son is following in his father's footsteps; maybe I'm wrong but the collar architecture doesn't seem to work as well for him.

[Concordia]

Interesting to see how the absence of a higher collar markedly changes Prince Michael's appearance...

Now, that collar & tie look OK on him.

[ballmouse]

I worked with an Englishman years ago who I believe wore a T&A shirt with small knot. Looked very much like Former President of Egypt Nasser. It's a seldom seen, but very flattering combination.

[alden]

I see his son is following in his father's footsteps; maybe I'm wrong but the collar architecture doesn't seem to work as well for him.

Rob

It sure looks like its working great for him to me!



(OK, sorry, I lost concentration. His tie is his weak point, not the collar.)

Interesting to see how the absence of a higher collar markedly changes Prince Michael's appearance...

Yes, you clearly see the giraffe neck that his collars have been crafted to mitigate. You really do not see the concentration in his image when the collar is absent. And this is a good illustration of the lesson I've been preaching about for decades: the well designed and executed collar frames the face and brings all our attention and focus to it.

I say "designed collar" because we all need our own collars, made to frame our own particular faces and images. There is no "one size fits all" to be had. That is why we need a true custom, artisanal shirtmaker who knows how to design and craft for our needs. I hope this is all starting to make sense to many of you now.

The shirt collar nexus is like the setting of a diamond. And we are on this cold spinning planet for a nanosecond of eternity to sparkle and beam like that diamond. Do it.

Nice find on the picture Rob..

Cheers

[aston]

I agree his tie is pretty meh, but actually wonder if his collar is buttoned up properly.

[bond_and_beyond]

Speaking of royals, despite everything that's been said on this thread so far, I think these guys look pretty good with their English collars:

Untitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

Untitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

Untitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

BB

[alden]

If its good enough for you guys, its good enough for Charles, so I will confirm that his shirts, collars and ties are his weakest point. But who would expect Charles to choose a Windsor collar? He clearly has the intention to distance himself from his prodigious style predecessor and create his own legacy.

Charles has a very fine, birdlike, turkey head. He can afford to wear a tiny collar and points. I suspect the collar has a bit of tie space, the old English collars of this type did have. But when the tie is pulled into place and knotted as tightly as Charles does, we don’t see it. I think the very tight small knot, gives off vibes of nervousness, up-tight, anal retentive, arrogant and closed; according to a tailor I know who made him 22 suits, that is pretty much Charles’s personality.

On the flip side, Prince Michael gives off clear vibes of relaxed confidence. He seems a man you’d like to drink a glass with. And having met him, that is pretty much the way he is.

Honore de Balzac wrote an amazing essay called "The Theory of Gait" where he maintained that the entire history and personality of a man can be read in the way he walks and holds himself. I believe you can read a lot about a man in his choice of shirts, collars and tie. Confidence, self assurance, station, weakness, arrogance, will, arriviste neediness, middle class striving, blind conformity, lack of imagination, no sparkle of life...its all there to be read.

So, in summary, the Prince Charles is not a collar and tie I would like to see any of you copy unless that kind of collar works very well for your head and face. And remember to give is just a bit of tie space so the knot has somewhere to go and is not crushed to death by the collar points.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

The sartorial giants are falling, their feet [collars] were made of clay!

If I have understood your point, I think I already know the answer to this, but what then do you make of Voxsartoria's collars?

Untitled by Bond Beyond, on Flickr

BB

[alden]

BB



Vox has worn many different collars over the years. And I am sure he has good reason for choosing this one.

The rest of the look is composed, as always, with very beautiful clothes. What is missing is the man. I have never seen a full photo of the Man nor have I had the pleasure to meet him. Maybe some of you have. And as you all know I am much more interested in the Man than in his clothes. Or rather, I am only interested in the clothes in the context of the Man. What we see are stunning clothes arranged into mostly great looks, but they could be clothes on a tailor's dummy. Where is the man who animates them, or not?

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

BB



Vox has worn many different collars over the years. And I am sure he has good reason for choosing this one.

The rest of the look is composed, as always, with very beautiful clothes. What is missing is the man. I have never seen a full photo of the Man nor have I had the pleasure to meet him. Maybe some of you have. And as you all know I am much more interested in the Man than in his clothes. Or rather, I am only interested in the clothes in the context of the Man. What we see are stunning clothes arranged into mostly great looks, but they could be clothes on a tailor's dummy. Where is the man who animates them, or not?

Cheers

Michael,

Have you turned into a diplomat all of a sudden?

Vox's collar in the photo (and indeed many others from recent years) seem to be just like the ones you recommend against (and I must say strikingly similar to my Collar no. 1 posted in this thread), ie no tie space etc.

BB

[alden]

BB

Very hard to tell without seeing the Man wearing it.

Prince Charles wears the collar passably and can do so because of his face. In this photo, you see the tie space better and the knot seats reasonably for this style. The T&A spread collar shirts from the 70s and 80s had tie space because men back then wore larger knots.

_80851206_80851205 by The London Lounge, on Flickr

What I can tell you, and you can reread my previous posts for further clarification, is that I have never seen a man wear that particular collar well. What I do not like about this collar, apart from all the things you know, is the stark lines of it. You could set a table for two for lunch under that thing and be quite safe.

And that includes this fellow:

d6bc29f35d3323ebe78f7691ea084bee--older-men-mens-fashion by The London Lounge, on Flickr

alan-flusser by The London Lounge, on Flickr

We've lost a good third of his tie under the collar. The width of the spread collar magnifies the width of the man's Frog like head and face. Do you se the parallel lines that emphasize like the broad stroke on a keyboard. It does him no good service at all. And this is a set picture. There are many others that show this collar to even less good effect on him. If you have a heavy broad face, this collar is death. A higher set and narrower collar would be a blessing for this man.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

Yes, Flusser does not really look thst well dressed in most photos I’ve seen of him.

The T&A spread collar shirts from the 70s and 80s had tie space because men back then wore larger knots.

They still make them like that, or at least they did when I first ordered bespoke shirts from them back in 2009. The first trial shirt had so much tie space that only a Windsor knot would do! That was subsequently reduced over the next four trial shirts to what I posted a photo of in this thread (Collar no. 1). Therefore, I associate Jermyn St shirts with lots of tie space and Italian shirts with the opposite.

BB