Grande Pignolo

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

alden
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:39 pm

Some customers never want to be happy. They bounce around from tailor to tailor always departing in a huff. They have googled their style instead of living into it. They want to believe that they are so refined and superior that their standards can never be met by mortal man. These people often order a rare steak hoping it will come to the table medium so they can send it back. Tailors chuckle at these gents and are happy to be rid of them.

A Bench Tailor has put his life into learning every bit his craft. He loves what he does. Tailoring is his universe. He cannot wait for Monday morning to get back to your suit. To put his hands in your cloth. To match your plaids. To adjust your pattern to your structure. A happy customer means that all is well in his universe. Customers today are very different from customers from , say , 20-25 years ago. Customers back then had a sentimental appreciation and love and R E S P E C T for a man working with his hands.Perhaps a bit of envy. Perhaps his father was himself a tailor or a blacksmith or a farmer. A man whose school was a work shop or a barn...not a university.
Great stuff Old Henry.....Grande Poeta

Cheers
old henry
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Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:44 pm

Luca, I have added more to my above post. It will answer your question I think.
Also, I think I have answered your question regarding "demanding" customers in the first few sentences.
Do you go to your tailor and demand things ?
Luca
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Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 am

old henry wrote:Luca, I have added more to my above post. It will answer your question I think.
Also, I think I have answered your question regarding "demanding" customers in the first few sentences.
Do you go to your tailor and demand things ?
'Demand' sounds quite imperious. I can't imagine anyone on LL would speak to their tailor in a disdainful or rude manner. I certainly attempt to explain what I'm looking for.

For myself, I've always had to admit -- grudgingly -- that the " grandi pignoli" in MY professional life have contributed to my progress. I didn't particularly like them; but they made a difference.
alden
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Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:33 am

Clients would do well to spend a few hours being Grande Pignolo in the mirror at home before they decide to confront a wise old tailor. So before you go into the Moses and the ten commandments act at your local tailors, make sure you're the real thing. Construct a clear, easily understood and quickly explained order for you tailor to vet for you and then get on with it.

From the first hours of the LL, for over a decade now, I have defended tailors against the most noxious GPs known to man saying “there are very few bad tailors but an awful lot of iffy clients.” And I maintain the above to be true.

But there must be a lot of very bad tailors out there. I know because the tailors I have met in my life, most of the great ones, have told me so. :D

Seriously, I cannot think of a single moment in forty years when my intervention improved a tailor’s work. Mind you, it could very well be my own lack of skill.

I have been able to place my orders very clearly, while referring it always to my tailor for his final judgement. I am paying him for his expertise after all. I have been able to design a few models, leaving the final decision, once again, to my tailor. In all that time, I have never felt the need to backseat drive a professional craftsman. Never. If I had ever felt the need to grab the wheel, then I would have known instantaneously that I was in the wrong place.

Whenever a bit of a problem arose, and they did, I knew to go back to that ghastly truth meter, the mirror. Its the last place people ever want to look, but its really the place to begin any serious investigation. In my case, the truth was almost always there waiting for me patiently with a wry smile on its face. :shock: :D

I guess my generally positive experiences are partly due to good vetting work and maybe good luck. Both must have protected me. And so one distillation from my experience, that might help beginners, in addition to constructing a very clear order, choose your craftsmen with great care.

But nowadays, its the great tailors that pick their clients. And most of the greats have long waiting lists to get in their book much less get any work done. And so its the tailors who do the vetting now! Turn around is fair play, is it not?

Here is an example of a conversation with my tailor as it transpired a few weeks ago: “Boy I got a phone call from an attorney in Milan, wants to have some suits made, a real pretentious son of a bitch. You know one of those know it alls. I told him my book was closed for the foreseeable future.” There were a few other choice expletives I have edited out to protect fragile ears. But you get the idea.

Where I have been extremely fastidious is in the selection of the cloth I offered to my tailor…but you knew that… :wink:

So my advice is that you take out your frustrations on cloth distributors and merchants and leave our good old tailors in peace.

Cheers
old henry
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Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:13 pm

Luca , without meaning to you show a general lack of understanding of salt of the earth ways. You are not alone. if you went into Raffaelli's tailor shop and tried to be a grande pignolo just so he would think that you are a force to be reckoned with he would laugh in your face. He was a solid brick of a man and you could not match wits with him. Old Vincent Nicholosi would stick a stiletto under your ribs and have his customers from Ozone Park feed your body to the fishes. I don't know what type of men you think tailors are ?Vincent Nicholosi made four Benchmade suits a month in his little shop on Madison Avenue. Do you think this proud old Sicilian would have cow-towed to some Fred Astaire wannabes demands? Raffaell and Nicholosi are both gone.
I am sure that you and Luca are the nicest guys in the world. But both of you and most others these days have lost touch with the soil. Sounds to me like "New Money". From what I read on the LL these days , members have very little knowledge of true Benchmade Bespoke. Ten years ago the guys on here were knowledgeable and wanted to learn. Lots of talk here these days. Lots of puffery. Lots of lofty badminton back and forth. No understanding of just letting things happen. No Trusting to allow things to unfold before you. A tailor makes you HIS suit. Not YOUR suit.
Here is part of a poem written by an old tailor. Says it all.

I am a tailor from the old world
My craft is dying
Each tailor that goes is an end
Let it be
There is no room in the new world
For the honored work of an old humanity.

If I offend anyone I don't mean to.
I wish to set you straight
You do, however, without intending, offend me.
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culverwood
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Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:45 pm

You said this some time ago old henry after someone had posted a first fitting and invited comments:
"...... has made a great point and I like very much that he considers and respects the tailors pride and feelings.
I respect ...... for his take on this. His thinking is old thinking. There are old world customers as well as old world tailors. If I made a first fitting so accurately I would be very happy. Perhaps I should maybe keep any critiques in PMs."

The point was that the tailor himself would have seen the faults you pointed out and very likely corrected them. I agree in choosing a master of his trade and letting him or her get on with their work. Micro-managing is as bad in working with craftsmen as it is in business.
old henry
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Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:34 pm

You're a thoughtful man , culverwood. Your tailor is lucky to have you.
Frank
BESPOKE62
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:55 am

alden wrote:Guys, your tailor knows his job better than you ever will. You have nothing to convey, or expect, inspire or challenge. He or she has done this job for decades, sometimes generations, and sometimes multiple generations. So just trust your tailor. But really trust them. Because trust is the greatest sign of respect one person can offer another.
I can relate to this totally. I have had to privilege of working 3 outstanding tailors; tops in their profession and could choose the clientele with whom they chose to work. Now, I must say that I spent many years studying, reading, learning and understanding bespoke clothes, cloth and tailoring. However, this was for me personally. To say I, know nothing about cloth and tailoring would be untrue, unless I am in the company of and compared to some of the great master tailors, with whom I have had to privilege to associate. Then, my knowledge would be less then nothing. Maybe, I am a rare bird, but I have never had a “bad” experience with a tailor.

The first tailor; I had read about him in a prominent magazine. One Saturday afternoon, my friend and I were driving on the side of town which his shop was located, we gave him a call and asked if we could stop by. He said he was closing in 30 minutes if we could make it in that time; we did. We, ended up spending over an hour in shop, it was more at his behest then ours. And before we left, he said to me, “let me make you a suit; if you don’t like it, you pay me nothing.” Now, least we think this was some sales ploy; it was not; he did not “need” my business; as previously stated, he was able to choose whom he worked with, and had no shortage of clients. As a matter of fact; he made very little, if any, profit off me; as he never charged me, more than the cost of making the suit; this was upon his insistence. In later years he told me, he had summed me when I walked through the door, he saw all my earthly imperfections, (one shoulder was slightly lower than the other, one leg slightly longer or that I favored onside over the other, etc, etc,) and that this is the picture he had in his mind as he was cutting the cloth. He told me from our initial meeting, that he could tell that I was very discerning gentleman, who knew what he wanted and could appreciate all the work that goes into creating a suit. I trusted him, for several reason, (1) he would never let anything leave out of his shop that he was not 100% satisfied with; he saw thing that I and no one else would have ever seen, he taught me that there is a 1\4 of an inch between good and perfection. (2) His reputation was more important to him then money. He said that most people who came into his shop, did not have an appreciation for his work, they had money, wanted the best and that was it. I told him once, I don’t come to your shop to get a suit, I come for the stories and a suit just happens to come along with it. Every suit that he made me has a story, and he has since past away, but each time i wear one of those suit, it is like I am standing in his shop hearing him tell the story. For one of my commission, he told me; “you made me go back to my old schools books”. He was glad that I was letting him be a tailor. One of his greatest compliments to me, “Thank you for being a gentleman”

The second tailor was retired, he too was from Italy and been tailoring since he was able to walk. He said that he tried retirement, but there was only so much golf he could play, and grand kids lived out of state, so he had to do something to keep himself busy. So, he took on a select group of clientele; and I was privileged to be among them. I would stop by his shop and he would always insist that I have a cup coffee (Italian coffee is strong) and biscuits with him. Along the way he would tell me wonderful stories about Italy; he would show me garments that he was working on and show me all the handwork and explain why it was necessary and I would watch him use these irons, which were older then he was, to bend the cloth into perfect submission to his will, it was a thing to behold. His greatest compliment to me, in perfect broken Italian, "Mr. Gordon, you are not only my number one customer, you are my number one gentleman." The things I learned from these guys were priceless, this breed of tailors is almost totally gone. I was and still am honored, that I had the privilege to know them, work with them and that they took time to share their life experience with me.
These were honest to goodness tailors, they actually sketched their paper patterns, cut their cloth, and made their suits by hand; old world style. They never let me walk out there shop, with anything less than their very best.

I went to each of these tailors for what they could offer me, not for what I could offer them; for in reality what did I have to offer them; money, they didn’t need my money. Knowledge? They had been tailoring longer then I had been alive and had forgotten more about tailoring; then I probably would ever know. But, in the end, I found I did have something to offer them; and I gave it to them abundantly - - RESPECT! And the borrow a line from Robert Frost “And that has made all the difference”
old henry
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:12 am

God Bless this Man.
uppercase
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:04 am

Hello friends!

I hope that you are all having a good time!

First, I hope that you all understand that the start of this Grande Pignoli post was meant in good fun and jest. At my expense!

But Ha! Lots of interesting, unexpected and curious responses popped up here and there.

Let's get back to the matters at hand: Grande Pignoli : what does it mean? what is the connotation? how it it instructive and how should it be understood.

First, it deserves a good laugh. The note unintentionally left in my coat pocket was obviously not meant for me to see. What followed the notation of "Grande Pignolo" was an exhaustive, hand written list of notations on alterations needed, numbers, centimeters, adjustments on this, my first coat. You get the idea. Very sincere.

I think very simply put, that both Luca and ScreaminMarlon, who I gather are native Italian speakers, got it right: Grande Pignoli means a fastidious, fussy person.
And as Alden pointed out early on, the note and designation was probably a message to the tailors: take care of this person. Get it right.

But Luca got right to the point: did the tailor make me a nice suit? That's what matters.
While Alden asked early on: how does the coat look and feel? What's the results, here, brother?? Picture?

Indeed, that's the point!

But wait.

I want you to know that my relationship with this lady is very cordial and sympathique. It is my first sports coat with her.

Now, you will note that this lady is not a tailor, although she may have once been one. She herself did not make the coat.

No, she is a small business owner, the owner of a successful,traveling bespoke concern, employing perhaps 7-10 home-based cutters/tailors/makers in Italy. I don't know the full details.

But as bespoke concerns go, it is a pretty big operation I think; she operates internationally, travels to many countries, she is very with it, very savvy, very professional, dependable, very opinionated, no nonsense yet with a good sense of humor and irony: just the kind of person I like to deal with.

I have to give her a lot of credit to be so successful in such a competitive, cut throat, highly personal, male dominated business.

I will be very happy to reveal her identity, it is no secret, really. Why should it be? But I just want to get a few commissions more under my belt first to be able to provide a fair and balanced assessment for your consideration. You may even at some point consider getting something made up by her...who knows.?

But apart from this background, while interesting, the question is: did she make me a nice coat?

Yes, she did. I am very encouraged. I am happy. And I will be a returning client. I know that she will do better and better because she is that kind of person - a little bit driven, a little bit obsessive, a little bit determined. Brava!!
Grande Pignoli or not....she delivers.

Now, briefly, on to other matters.

Raphael. Old Henry: I met Raphael in NYC though I did not have anything made by him. This was probably 10-12 years ago, I cant remember exactly.
Former LL member Manton took me over to Raphael's shop and introduced me and we all hung out for an hour or so chewing the fat. It was a good time.

As I recall, I was wearing a DB light gray mohair suit from the Milanese tailor: A.Caraceni.
Raphael looked at it and declared it a POS! And then proceeded to deconstruct it, pointing to this and that flaw, and basically telling me to throw it in the garbage, start over, and demand that I get my money back from those thieves in Milan!
Priceless!
You've got to love the guy.!!
What is the update on him??
I don't know; I can't find any current info on him on the internets.

We've touched on many matters here on this thread, some quite raw and emotional, some introspective and apologetic, some extreme and misplaced. Good.

Curiously, there is a parallel thread running today over on Permanent Style now which touches on many of the same issues, including clients' relationships with their tailors.

There, Simon wrote about the much publicized Neapolitan trouser tailor - Ambrosi - and his craft; but then, a few posters intervened in the Comments Section, and wrote of their very poor experience with this "craftsman". Indeed, a larcenous situation, as some described. Quite at contrast to the company line promoted in magazine (The Rake) and blogs... I cannot comment as I have no experience with Ambrosi.

Curiously, in the Readers' Comments on the Ambrosi article, our LL Alden is cited a number of times by Readers as stating that all Neapolitan tailors are crooks, to be avoided at all costs, etc. etc.....

It's well worth visiting the thread on Ambrosi over at Permanent Style, particularly Readers comments.

BTW,a poster over at PS on the same Ambrosi thread went on to suggest to Permanent Style's Simon Crompton to interview Michael Alden who he called one of the two giants of the bespoke internet forums, along with Crompton.

That interview suggestion prompted a chuckle.

Indeed, that would be a fascinating interview particularly as Alden considers Crompton as stylish as a "chipmunk".!
I hope that interview is broadcast live. I will be watching.

It's an interesting world out there.
alden
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:29 am

But, in the end, I found I did have something to offer them; and I gave it to them abundantly - - RESPECT! And the borrow a line from Robert Frost “And that has made all the difference”
Bespoke62

Thank you for the beautiful stories. They hit home with me. Its was like I was living them again, with you. I could have written these stories myself, but not nearly as well.

Cheers
alden
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:14 am

First, I hope that you all understand that the start of this Grande Pignoli post was meant in good fun and jest. At my expense!
And we are taking full advantage of it. :D

Now seriously, I think we addressed your GP issues very well in the first few posts.
Pick the definition that you think applies best. Only you know the circumstances after all.
Now, you will note that this lady is not a tailor, although she may have once been one. She herself did not make the coat.
Yes, I have always been under the impression that the woman you are referring to is an entrepreneur not a tailor. That would explain things. Entrepreneurs can take anything you can throw at them. So she as business owner sent this note to her employee the tailor making your clothes telling him not to botch it cause the client is one hell of a GP. Makes perfect sense.

Anyway we have since gotten onto a discussion about how to interact with craftsmen. And for over a decade now, I have written that this is a subject of prime importance. Its vastly more important than any possible nit or nat a nitpicker can pick. That explains all the activity in this thread.

Cheers
alden
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Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:11 am

For those of you you may not know, are new to the LL or live outside of NYC, I thought I would fill in some blanks for you.

Vincente Nicolosi, cited by Old Henry, was an LL member, a Sicilian immigrant and a legendary NY tailor. His most famous client's name has been mentioned in this very thread, Tom Wolfe. And according to eyewitness testimony, the great Dandy dressed all in white, was as sweet as a cupcake (we didn't have snowflakes back then.) :D He was a real gentleman with his tailor, humble and respectful. Better that than swim with the fishes. :D

Rafael Raphaelli, was another legend on Madison Avenue, and when he closed his shop a few years ago NYC lost a real Master. There is quite a bit written about him and he too enrolled in the LL. I had a chance to meet him a couple years before he closed and found him a charming man. He was a no nonsense kind of a guy but full of mischief and fun. "Your coat is just a bit too short", he used to tell me with a lovely smile. You could write a book about him. And I know that Old Henry could delight us all for hours with his Raphaelli stories. I've heard many of them. But the goat story told by OH and Raph together one evening was one I won't forget.

Cheers
Noble Savage
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:24 pm

alden wrote:An old Italian wise man once advised me to always use the formal "Thou" (Lei in Italian) when addressing a tailor. It was not only a palpable sign of respect, but it gave both parties, but especially the craftsman, a measure of distance, breathing space that could be filled over time or not.
As a Grande Pignolo once said, in English, thou is the singular form of you, which is less formal and respectful than the plural form, which is now almost exclusively used in English.
alden
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:38 pm

Glad someone is reading this stuff...thanks for catching the typo, it should read

An old Italian wise man once advised me to always use the formal Lei in Italian when addressing a tailor. It was not only a palpable sign of respect, but it gave both parties, but especially the craftsman, a measure of distance, breathing space that could be filled over time or not.

Cheers
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