Grande Pignolo

[uppercase]

Of course I act with my tailor.
And she acts with me.
It is a drama, an opera.
How could it be otherwise.??!!

But it is not an engagement of tone deaf monologues but rather a dialogue.
Or perhaps a dialectic.

And in this interaction, I hope that we together design a better garment than we might have otherwise through a dry, business like exchange.

I do think that it is important to engage my tailor emotionally, to convey who i am, understand who they are, what i expect, to challenge, inspire and convey my trust in them.

Appreciation of what they have accomplished, slight disappointment in where they fell short, and resolution that the next future project will reach the skies.

The pursuit and deliverance of craftsmanship is one of eternal optimism. Even if seldom achieved.…

Otherwise, I can go to Brooks Brothers and buy a perfectly fine OTR suit.
There are hardly any people involved in that transaction.
And so… oh so boring.

If I can engage the heart of a tailor, a craftsman, I will be happy. They don't even have to produce the best ever product in the world. They don't have to be the most talented. But if I can convey a spark of recognition, of respect, even honor to them in some small measure, and encourage them in their work, then I am humbled and I am satisfied. I don't do this gratuitously or cynically. It is one of the many intangible pleasures I derive from bespoke.

I remember once asking the front of house to introduce me to the tailor who cut and made me an equisite pair of trousers. This was in Naples. We descending down 2 stories into a windowless, soulless, concrete room where 3 tailors were sewing under cold fluorescent lights - the trouser maker and his 2 lady assistants. A photo of the madonna taped on the wall. The trouser maker was a young chubby guy, with scruffy beard, dressed in baggy jeans and polo shirt in the Neapolitan street manner, with thick glasses and a watch eye. Very humble, unassuming, and self effacing guy. But I just wanted to say to him :Thank You, and that I thought his work was great. And it was.

Now. Where am I? And how did I go off on this tangent from the matter at hand. Pignolo.
Well, I don't know …. Anyway …

But I am glad that Old Henry chimed in. We have a number of practicing tailors here on LL who can help us clients.
Two words OH mentioned : respectful and reasonable. Something for us as clients to think about a little more….

The issue of Grande Pignolo, is an important issue : that of our relationship with our tailors and craftsmen, and their relationship with us. Spoken and unspoken.

It is important to understand.

[alden]

Guys, your tailor knows his job better than you ever will. You have nothing to convey, or expect, inspire or challenge. He or she has done this job for decades, sometimes generations, and sometimes multiple generations. So just trust your tailor. But really trust them. Because trust is the greatest sign of respect one person can offer another. And Old Henry is absolutely right to stress its importance.

Tell the tailor clearly what you want and do the fittings That's all there is to it. You are not a knight errant pursuing The Holy Grail, laying out challenges, or inspirations for access to a holy and eternal craft. No, you're most likely just a guy wanting to have a jacket made. So, ease back with the effort and will. Shut off that roaring furnace of a brain. Lower the stakes. Do not micro-manage ever and I mean ever! Don’t risk being a Grande Pignolo, or learn how to duck.

Now this story may or my not be helpful but as it turns out I left my tailor about a week ago and won't see him again for many, many months. Before leaving I asked him to make me a garment I have never made before, one I had never seen him make in the 15 years I have been his client, or one we had ever spoken about. I told him I wanted XYZ and he said, “OK an XYZ, come back next week for a fitting.” I went back for the fitting and it was great. And in departing I was moved to say, “You know, in 15 years and nearly 30 garments now, I have never had to say a word to you, not a word. And the things you do just come back beautifully. Thank you.” He smiled and said, “you have told me mountains, more than you can know, so much, but not in words. You see I know you well because that’s my job, its what I have been trained to do and suffered to learn to do well. You know the sole objective of my work, the reason I come here everyday and into the night, is to please you.”

"Is to please you"...This is the way things are supposed to work, the way the craft has developed over centuries to work and the way it will work for you if you will just allow it to work this way.

Guys, its not a Wagnerian opera, it's not Parsifal, it's a little boy at the piano playing Silent Night for the very first time.

Cheers

[old henry]

Uppercase, I asked a beautiful old Italian lady today about your "Grande Pignolo" and she laughed and said , " he's a pain in the ass". But I'd take you as a customer eight days a week.

[whyescalar]

The last lines of Twelfth Night are appropriate here. Reminds me of an old tailor in Buenos Aires.

[hectorm]

He or she has done this job for decades, sometimes generations, and sometimes multiple generations. So just trust your tailor. But really trust them.

The more I know the most respected professionals in my own field of expertise, the less I trust the most respected professionals in other fields. Tailors (or physicians, BTW) included.
But what can I do? The grande pignolo attitude might work in some cases, but won't help me make any friends.
But is it friendship with my tailor what I'm looking for?
Fortunately, in bespoke, the stakes are limited and errors are generally correctable. So, trust or no trust, it's irrelevant if the final product is "the expected" (notice I don't say "the best").
Although I recognize that trusting would make the whole process more relaxed.

[alden]

The grande pignolo attitude might work in some cases, but won't help me make any friends.
But is it friendship with my tailor what I'm looking for?

"If you want a friend, get a dog."

An old Italian wise man once advised me to always use the formal Lei in Italian when addressing a tailor. It was not only a palpable sign of respect, but it gave both parties, but especially the craftsman, a measure of distance, breathing space that could be filled over time or not.

Its like any kind of seduction, you must first create space for the other to come to you. No one needs to know who you are, or what you expect. They don't need encouragement, inspiration or challenges. They don't need you to throw them a bone or pat them on the head either. The less they know the better. Mystery is that tiny grain of sand that gets inside and makes a pearl. All you want to see is an irresistible desire to please you slowly growing in the other! Whether its tinkers, tailors or tanned brunettes, this magical formula is always the same and it, almost always, works to perfection.

And in the case of a tailor, all they need to know is your order and measurements. Basta. Anything else, any cozening, uncalled for familiarity, or presumptuous encouragement comes off as not too cleverly disguised pressure. Its a turn off. It sucks up much needed space and kills desire.

And you risk being tagged...well you know what you risk being tagged as..

Cheers

PS. R-E-S-P-E-C-T, like Aretha sang, is the magic word Hectorm. And trust is important to the extent that it is a manifest display of respect. Though times have changed and we live in a less respectful world, I believe that respect is a fundamental human need and it will never entirely go out of fashion.

[uppercase]

Alden describes his interaction with his tailor as a seduction.
I, as an opera.

I'll take either.

I presume that there are as many styles of interactions as their are members of LL.

If, like Alden, I had a steady tailor I'd been going to for 15 years, I'd be happy to say for a new order: "the same" as my last coat.
…or a barber who knows every hair and hair plug, again: "the same".
…or a local bistro I'd frequented for years, seating me at my usual table in a hidden corner of the room near the mentholated toilet: "the special".

I too like the familiar, the reliable, the steady hand. No need for a lot of talk. Agreed.

But this was a new tailor; my first commission.

Indeed,:
No, I won't be going into the kitchen and teaching the chef how to properly sauté a scallop.
Nor how to better compose her salad nicoise.

But I will tell her if it wasn't right today.
Do I trust her? Sure, that's why I return to her restaurant.
And if I don't, I won't be returning soon. And she'll never know why if I don't speak, if I remain silent.

But don't I owe it to her to compliment her on a particularly nice saddle of lamb as well as tell her that pork chop was dry as hell…? I think so.

Some chefs don't care. Their business is so big and booming, their reputation and fame stellar, the tourists are pouring in, there are no reservations available, the reviews are ecstatic, the scene is buzzing.

Then they start cutting corners, the appreciative local gourmand replaced by bus loads of tourists who make them more money in one afternoon than 50 of my solitary visits. Service slips. Standards fall.

That is a very familiar scenario. Oh well. I won't be going there anymore. Maybe you want to try to bring them back to the old standard … maybe you can, maybe you can't. Maybe you don't care. Maybe you won't say anything.

For me it works like this: If I order a ribeye rare, and it comes out of the kitchen medium-well …
…if the wine is corked …
Well, you can be sure that every time I will be sending it back.

OK. Maybe the chef agrees. Maybe not. But rare is rare. Corked is corked.
Maybe I just cost the house $100-- for the overcooked returned prime beef or $200-- for the returned Hermitage.

They can either send me something out again, re-heated, spit in my soup and call me Grande Pignolo or be upfront and forthright and get me what originally I ordered. It depends on the quality, the character, of the chef and the house. You will instinctually know top class every time, at least in intention if not talent . Why settle for less ??
Give me good intentioned people every time . Talent is as rare as hens teeth. But at least give me earnest good intentions, and spare me the cynicism, excuses, and justifications.
Just bring me a rare steak, musty with age. Just what I ordered. Not so complicated really ….

I'm in their restaurant to have a good meal, not play games, nor teach them how to cook nor tell them of the fabuolous wagyu I just had in Tokyo and how their beef and technique shits.
For god' s sake, I just want to eat a good steak!!
And have my tailor make me a decent coat.
Not that complicated, folks.

Why is everyone presuming me Pignolo ??'!! Indeed, of the Grande variety. ??
Has anyone here among the expert investigators and adjudicators focused on the tailor?
No?
Why not??!!
Look there, friends.

Now., my view, and you may agree, there is nothing wrong with being Pignolo.
"Grande" - may be another matter, as Alden points out, as this suggests being a MAJOR asshole.

I will settle for minor asshole , or more politely, fussy.

I like best of all Old Henry's Italian lady friend who interprets this as : being a simple pain in the ass.
That makes good sense to me and I am happy to be so called. It is simple.

I have many exculpatory explanations which I will reveal later. Do not presume the worst about me nor the best of my tailor. There are 2 sides to this story.

Moreover, I do not subscribe to some of Alden's points above -particularly that we do not have anything to convey, expect, inspire or challenge. Really?

I thought that I was the customer ….

There is yet much to discuss.

The good news is that I am enjoying this coat, I think that this tailor has much to offer, that there is further to go and maybe I am on to someone really good. I will try to keep you posted.

[alden]

Moreover, I do not subscribe to some of Alden's points above -particularly that we do not have anything to convey, expect, inspire or challenge. Really? I thought that I was the customer ….

Yes, you are the customer.

So what are the actions we can take as customers so that people want to do great things for us and not dread doing anything for us?

It’s the classic battle of the network adages, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” versus “you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

Now, to be fair, the adage does confirm the bold approach, and the “squeaky wheel” does “get the grease.” And while that approach might work very well in hamburgers and hand grenades, we are talking about craft here.

There is nothing sweet about the second approach because the “honey” here is smarts not sugar. Its kind of like getting your boss to have the idea himself to give you a promotion or a raise; or getting your loved one to have the idea to give you a new bespoke suit for Christmas. “Well what a great idea, honey, I’d love a new suit.” “Boss I never dreamt you’d be so generous, thanks.” WINK WINK.

Now it is all a question of style and all kinds of approaches and attitudes can work in life.

But if I am the person standing in front of a barrage of aggressive action verbs like expect, convey, inspire and challenge, the first thing I am going to do is duck to avoid the blow to the face and the second thing I am going to do is to deliver a good old fashioned kick to the groin. “Bully me will you, well take that!” Thud. No, I can’t do that, so instead I’ll smile, play along, ask for a premium price, take your money and send your work down to Sal at “Union Garments and Grill”. He’ll make you a hell of a nice suit as soon as he finishes with the last order of flapjacks. He he he.

UC, you came to this group with the riddle of the Grande Pignolo to solve. You got a few very erudite responses that varied from “nitpicker”, to “pain in the ass” to “Nino Manfredi.” And the adjective “asshole” was sternly and vigorously denied and put down. You also got some very good advice that you are resisting.

And now you are retracting the whole story. Was there a note? Was it in your pocket? Fess up…has this all been an elaborate sartorial hoax?

[old henry]

Oooooooooo. Uppercase is on the ropes. Alden moves in, pivots and scores a devastating uppercut followed by a crushing left hook. Uppercase slumps in the corner. The ref jumps in and saves Him from further punishment. Alden continues his streak.
Damon Runyon

[uppercase]

I cannot believe it, but 2 posts I have written tonight here have disappeared into the ether.
No time or energy to try again. A real pisser.

So I will leave you with this article from The Washington Post, about a concert violinist - Joshua Bell - who plays anonymously in a Washington DC subway - and actions and reactions of his experience.

Much to learn here and applicable to our discusssion at hand.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... fab570b747

Cheers!!

[hectorm]

If I am the person standing in front of a barrage of aggressive action verbs like expect, convey, inspire and challenge, the first thing I am going to do is duck to avoid the blow to the face and the second thing I am going to do is to deliver a good old fashioned kick to the groin. .......No, I can’t do that, so instead I’ll smile, play along, ask for a premium price, take your money and send your work down to Sal at “Union Garments and Grill”.

After a brief self examination, your posts on this thread had me thinking that -maybe, surely- I have not been as respectful to my tailors (at least to my last two ones) as I should have been. For once I have not been trusting enough and, yes, I've tried to convey expectations, and inspire and challenge them a bit under false pretenses. Two grown men with proven knowledge and skill who owned beautiful shops, travelled the world, and both, by coincidence, drove classic cars as a hobby. What was I thinking? The good final results obtained -as reflected on the garments- masked the tensions during the previous processes. The end justifying the means. I now suspect that the good end might not have had anything to do with the means. I'm glad they didn't send my clothes to "Union Garments and Grill", though
Probably both thought I was a pain in the neck, or worst, a condescending ahole. While I ....thought I was the cool customer who knew better...
One of them passed away at the end of 2015 and it's to late now for any kind of apology or reparation. Without crossing the line to the seduction or operatic drama side, I promise myself I'll deal better with the other tailor the next time.

[Luca]

You know, Uppercase, it seems to me that the only crucial thing here is whether that tailor makes you a nice suit. It's nice to be popular but in a client-supplier relationship there is an inherent tension that perhaps we are sometimes too eager to paper over, in our snow-flaky age.

In my experience, most people, myself included, produce their peak performance under a certain amount of pressure. Revel in your "pignolo" status. I very much doubt your tailor would even retain their quality, let alone improve on it if everyone just took what they were given with nary a comment or automatic praise.

I also reiterate that "pignolo", at least in Northern Italy, is not nearly as damning a verdict as 'A-hole", not by a long shot.

[Screaminmarlon]

You know, Uppercase, it seems to me that the only crucial thing here is whether that tailor makes you a nice suit. It's nice to be popular but in a client-supplier relationship there is an inherent tension that perhaps we are sometimes too eager to paper over, in our snow-flaky age.

In my experience, most people, myself included, produce their peak performance under a certain amount of pressure. Revel in your "pignolo" status. I very much doubt your tailor would even retain their quality, let alone improve on it if everyone just took what they were given with nary a comment or automatic praise.

I also reiterate that "pignolo", at least in Northern Italy, is not nearly as damning a verdict as 'A-hole", not by a long shot.

+1

[old henry]

Some customers never want to be happy. They bounce around from tailor to tailor always departing in a huff. They have googled their style instead of living into it. They want to believe that they are so refined and superior that their standards can never be met by mortal man. These people often order a rare steak hoping it will come to the table medium so they can send it back. Tailors chuckle at these gents and are happy to be rid of them.
A Bench Tailor has put his life into learning every bit his craft. He loves what he does. Tailoring is his universe. He cannot wait for Monday morning to get back to your suit. To put his hands in your cloth. To match your plaids. To adjust your pattern to your structure. A happy customer means that all is well in his universe. Customers today are very different from customers from , say , 20-25 years ago. Customers back then had a sentimental appreciation and love and R E S P E C T for a man working with his hands.Perhaps a bit of envy. Perhaps his father was himself a tailor or a blacksmith or a farmer. A man whose school was a work shop or a barn...not a university. Also..an old type customer knows how to convey his "expectations" in a very subtle ,humble, respectful way. And that he will be so pleasantly surprised at his tailors interpretation of his expectations. I have two new customers and both are so respectful. They had the nicest most respectful way of "suggesting" to me what they though they might want. And they left it up to me. I so enjoyed working for these customers and I wanted them to love my work and be very happy. They were.

[Luca]

Some customers never want to be happy. They bounce around from tailor to tailor always departing in a huff.

Oh yes, every profession has customers like that; not just the artisanal trades.

As someone who, as far as I know, works at at the higher ends of the trade, do you find that the idea of a demanding (but not impossible...) customer can result in advancement or not? In my purely abstract trade, I've found there are both clients who complain apparently for the sake of it (but that's merely my point of view, as the supplier) and ones who are "grande pignoli" but in the constructive sense that I've learned from them. A big differentiator, between the two species, is that word you mentioned: respect.