Journeyman Bespoke Advice

[emc894]

I'm not sure if this warrants it own topic, but I would appreciate the any guidance from more experienced bespeakers on what to tell my tailor to adjust my suit pattern.

I recently received a new suit from my tailor (not based in my city unfortunately) and something about it is less comfortable and less flattering than previous suits I have had made. In the below picture, the two on the left are my new suit, and the two on the right are suits I had made about 1.5 years ago, which are more comfortable and, to me, look better.

The only changes I had made on the new suit were a slightly smaller waist and 0.5" shorter body, but somehow I have succeeded in making my suit less comfortable and a perhaps slightly awkward looking. To my eye it looks like the shoulders are a bit more narrow as well but I measured and they are almost exactly the same. With my older suits, I can sit all day at my desk and be very comfortable, but the new suit is a more constrictive in the upper back (particularly under the arm pit), upper arm (deltoid area, most noticeable when reaching forward) and shoulder area. I have a broad upper body which generally makes fitting difficult and I try to use any tailoring tricks I can to make my body look less blocky.

Thoughts on anything I haven't noticed are appreciated as well.

The fabrics are Lesser navy herringbone 13oz Worsted, Harrisons Flannel and Fox Flannel, respectively.





Color adjusted:



A few more images.

[davidhuh]

Dear emc,

I may not see a lot on the basis of only one picture, but here is my observation:
- shoulders look good to me
- due to the shorter length, your button point moved up considerably.
- due to the higher button point, there is also less shape in the waist. Adding more shape would not help the case.
- the higher button point may also be the source of your perceived discomfort.

In my opinion, everything is due to your coat's shorter length. Given the conservative business cloth you used, I don't really understand the reason for making it shorter. Do not change a winning horse - and if you are out for the bum freezer look, use a fancier cloth. But you see on your pictures that the look does not shmooze your proportions... It also looks quite dated in my eyes.

I wonder why the disproportionate cut was not visible at an earlier fitting.

Cheers, David

[couch]

David's points are well taken. Have you checked the length? Could be an illusion, but the new jacket looks more like an inch shorter than the older ones, and the button point at least an inch higher.

It also looks to me as if the chest on the new coat is "cleaner," that is, fits closer to the body than either of your older jackets. A little less swell and/or drape would contribute to the feeling of constriction you report. It would also optically make the jacket look less shaped even if the waist circumference were the same.

Your observation about the shoulders is relevant. The upper sleeve at the sleevehead on the older jackets looks full enough to hang in a relaxed way, and seems very nicely set. Again, photos may not be reliable, but the newer jacket sleeve looks a little tighter across the upper arm from from to back. The shoulder line is also different on the new jacket. On both the older ones, it flows slightly down before meeting the sleeve, and on the new jacket it curves up slightly. This suggests a different shoulder pad construction and sleeve setting technique, which could influence freedom of movement, as could the shape of the armhole itself.

It would have been helpful to see a photo from the rear as well, since the first area of constriction you mention is the upper back. Some drape/fullness at the blades might have been reduced in the new jacket to suit the more "contemporary" style. This might have also influenced the degree of fullness in the upper arms.

In short, there are may ways to achieve freedom of movement and ease in the jacket cut and assembly--for instance, when the armhole is raised, the undersleeve has to be lengthened, or more drape provided, or more sleevehead fullness provided, or a little of each. These aspects work in a complementary way, and when one is altered the others have to be brought into corresponding alignment. It's hard for us to know absent more detailed information exactly what's changed.

My suggestion would be to check for specific areas and movements you can identify as leading to constriction as compared to the older jackets (raise arm forward, raise arm side, pull shoulders forward, etc.) and note where the pulls are. Then demonstrate each for your tailor and ask his opinion of the causes and how they might best be adjusted. Having one of the older jackets for comparison might be helpful.

Are these the same tailor/coatmaker's work? They don't look it.

[emc894]

Thank you very much. LL has delivered wonderfully yet again.

The suits were all made by the same tailor, but I have a feeling that I might have received a "lemon". The trousers were also missing the key button on the waist band so I will be sending the suit back to have the trousers repaired in any case. Maybe I should include the suit jacket along with this picture and ask him to revert back to my previous jacket. Would that be physically possible? If not, then I certainly feel foolish for tampering with my pattern using expensive cloth.

I have 4 additional suits paid for in this tailors "pipeline" so I really want to get this right.

[Concordia]

The jacket will be hard to change radically-- maybe there is something that can be let out on the back or under the arms to give a bit more room on the chest, with freedom for the shoulders to move about. If you prefer the older cut, however, do have a conversation before he takes the knife to four more jackets.

[couch]

Concordia's right. There's definitely more drape in the older jackets. It's showing at the blades in the rear view--notice how with your arms raised about the same amount the older jacket angles outward considerably more as it rises from waist to armhole, and the body silhouette meets the sleeve lower down on the sleeve. (This doesn't mean the older armhole is lower, just that the extra fullness hasn't visually separated from your arm yet at this height; that's partly why it's more comfortable--you can raise it further before the cloth pulls taut. In keeping with this style, the tailor has made the shoulder seam just a bit longer, allowing the shoulder line to extend down just past the acromion process on your shoulder before the slightly roped sleevehead gives its fillip. In fairness, another thing to note about the shoulder is that the new jacket is a medium-weight worsted while the other two are flannels, which may pull the shoulder end/sleevehead down a bit more and deceive my eye about the cut. But I suspect the new cut is a bit "neat."

I don't know what you told the tailor when you asked him to shorten the jacket, but it wouldn't surprise me if he felt the need to make it a bit cleaner to balance the length and conform to the more contemporary style, if your motive for shortening was to make the jacket feel a bit more up to date. The higher button point would suggest he was making changes to try to keep things proportional. It may just be that you're learning the difference in feel between the two styles of cut. If he didn't deliberately make changes in the fullness, then he's interpreted the pattern differently in the new jacket. You'll want to watch out for this kind of difference at the forward fitting.

So as Concordia indicates, the tailor might be able to add a bit of fullness at the side and/or center back seams, but this will have only a limited effect on the shoulder expression, since there's usually very little inlay available at the armhole. The good news is that if it's the same tailor who made the first two jackets, he's capable of giving you a beautiful silhouette. So whether this experiment turns out as well as you'd hoped or not, you have two good examples to return to for future commissions.

You didn't ask for opinions, but I'd just like to say that to my taste, the double-breasted jacket, especially as it's seen in motion in the photo with the camera, looks absolutely splendid. If it were me I'd ask the tailor to clone that shoulder/sleevehead line, amount of drape and swell, and length and never look back.