Trouser classics on a budget

[vxt22]

Gentlemen,

I realize that this is a bespoke board, but there is a lot of expertise here, and so I will ask the question anyway. I am looking for the solid color trouser staples -- navy, cream, shades of grey, chocolate brown, tan in classic fabrics such as whipcord, cavalry twill, moleskin, flannel, gabardine, barathea, and maybe cotton -- in a natural waist, double pleated cut.

As you can see I'm not looking for anything unique. It seems like there should be a RTW maker that provides good staple quality for a reasonable price. For the person with a working class budget bespoke could then fill in the extraordinary gaps.

Where would you gentlemen go for RTW classic cut staples?

Reason I ask is that considering my budget my bespoke frequency has to be spare. Nevertheless I want to flesh out my basic wardrobe foundation. Generally, unless a special exception, I need to be able to find sub-300 dollar trousers that are of reasonable quality and meet the traditional cut preference.

Much obliged.

[couch]

Since you mention a dollar figure, I assume you're in the U.S. If you are in or near NYC, for that budget I would strongly consider using LS Men's Clothing. In my experience, Izzy is good with a tape measure and you'll have a choice of various MTO programs or an individual trouser maker (Dario Rodriguez). This way you can have the rise, seat shape, width at knee and hem, type of closure (belt loops, DAKS tops, side adjusters) and details (such as hand-topstitched felled outseams on country twills, length of lining if desired, prong loops, heel guards, etc.) the way you want them. I've been happy on the whole with his work using Dario (I also provide detailed specs on paper with drawings, and/or an earlier pair to copy). As with a bespoke tailor there are occasionally hitches, but so far no showstoppers. Izzy himself is a great guy (and scholar of Talmud) who works hard to provide a good product at a good price. He stocks some odd lots of cloth, and you get the best total price using those if you can find something you like. He also has a good range of books from the standard distributors, or you can bring your own cloth. I have one pair from a cloth of his, and about eight pair out of cloth I provided. Recently I had two pair made with DAKS tops for about $270 each from my cloth (it would have been a bit less with belt loops).

I haven't used Bookster in England, but I've heard good reports about their moleskins, tweeds, and corduroys. Don't know if they do cavalry twills, etc. I believe they have a backlog so may not be speedy, and while it's nice to be able to order online or by mail/phone, and they allow a certain amount of specifying, I'd be much more comfortable with someone I can see in person who can see and deal with any fit issues and have them adjusted for the next pair.

The last two pair I had Izzy and Dario make were, in fact, a pants-across-the-water venture. The jacket was made by Poole. I had doubts that the cloth I'd sourced some years back (a 10-11 oz. 120s Oxford gray sharkskin with a bit of cashmere from Charles Clayton with "Savile Row" in the selvage) warranted the quality of make (and expense) of having Poole do the trousers. As it turns out, the cloth is performing better than I'd feared, but in any case the trousers look perfectly fine as part of the suit. I rummaged around in Izzy's vast button collection and found an excellent match for the horn on the jacket. I could also have used his charcoal-dyed MOP--on past suits from Poole they've used dyed MOP on the trousers (tougher in case of careless pressing).

I think some guys on other forums have used Dario independently in the past and had some issues with delivery times and such. I'm much happier having Izzy as the front-of-house man; since he gives Dario a lot of business he has leverage, and handling any problems about fit etc. is worth a surcharge. He's had a lot of experience.

It's hard to give advice about RTW brands because 1) the cuts change with fashion, and 2) in a given year, one model from one brand will fit your specific conformation better than another model or another brand, and there's no way to know without trying them on. Also, the better RTW brands, for good cloth, may exceed your budget (due to all the overhead and marketing baked into them). Depending on your taste, you might look into Paul Stuart, Ralph Lauren's better lines, J.Press, and Brooks Brothers, and try to catch a major sale. You can also try places like Century 21 or Sierra Trading Post and look for closeouts and overstocks of notable producers, including European ones. Again, that's time-consuming and may require frustrating returns to find a good fit.

[Simon A]

Bookster have gone out of business and many customers are now seeking to retrieve their prepayments through their credit card providers.

[couch]

Thanks for the news about Bookster, Simon and Alden. I'd heard good things about their corduroys, and since the demise of Lambourne, they seemed a likely source for cords with a decent rise and appropriate weight cloth. I'll have to dig up the corduroy thread (no pun intended) here and see who else members recommended, and/or what luck people have had ordering cloth direct from Brisbane Moss.

[Concordia]

A shame about Bookster-- they did some good MTM trousers for my daughter at a reasonable price.

For RTW or MTO, the Andover Shop understands the higher waist/forward pleat thing.

[dempsy444]

Incotex (RTW) is good.

[T.K.]

Right now I am having very good experiences with my first pair of Cordings cotton drill trousers. They are very sturdy and well made without any ornament and not expensive at all. Spring/fall weight (most likely considered winter weight by other RTW brands). They do have single pleats however.

http://www.cordings.co.uk/menswear/trousers

[Tutumulut]

Incotex (RTW) is good.

I agree wholeheartedly! My favorite rtw trousers. But I haven't come across models with a higher waistline and 2 pleats. Most have no pleats or 1 smaller one.

If you can guide me/us to the more classical look the OP is asking for, I/we would be much obliged.

Cheers
T

[couch]

Yes, Incotex prior to lower-rise fashions were/are beautifully made. But I haven't seen them in recent years in the OP's price range (sub $300) except as overstock/closeouts on Sierra Trading Post . . . .

[dempsy444]

Incotex (RTW) is good.

I agree wholeheartedly! My favorite rtw trousers. But I haven't come across models with a higher waistline and 2 pleats. Most have no pleats or 1 smaller one.

If you can guide me/us to the more classical look the OP is asking for, I/we would be much obliged.

Cheers
T

I didn't realize they were hard to come by. I purchased a couple at Wilks Bashford in San Francisco about six months ago for $200 each on sale. They seemed to have a pretty good selection there.

[Mark Seitelman]

It's hard to find satisfactory, traditional RTW. The simple reason is that shopping habits have changed. The stores that used to sell traditional clothes are either out of business or have degraded their offerings.

In the 1980's I patronized a long-departed off-price and quality clothier, Gorsart, serving the Wall Street and City Hall districts. It carried classic clothing. I recall buying a beefy cavalry twill trouser which the salesman said would last 20 years. I didn't get to test it since I outgrew them. Today, no RTW store would carry that type of merchandise. The average customer would not buy it.

I join Randall Couch in his praise of LS Mens Clothes. Aside from Dario you can get a MTM trouser from H. Freeman, Coppley, or Southwick. These MTM choices may be less expensive than Dario. If you cannot get to LS don't discount sending a trouser to copy. That's what I do with Dario.

Within easy reach of LS are the following RTW stores:

1. Paul Stuart--excellent and wide selection of classic pants in excellent cloths and in various stylings (e.g., D rings, Daks, belt loops, pleats, no pleats, etc.); the best selection in NYC; but some pants may exceed your budget;

2. J. Press--classic, conservative; it tends to be more affordable than Paul Stuart, but it won't have the same, wide selection; and

3. Brooks Brothers--you may be able to find a grey flannel or someone else, but its selections are few.

If NYC is inconvenient, these store do mail order. I know that J. Press and Brook have good return policies.

Good luck.

[Mark Seitelman]

I checked the websites of both J. Press and Brooks, and you can scrap both.

They offer only plain front pants. You want pleats.

It seems that pleats are not readily available in RTW. Therefore, you may be stuck with MTM. Check LS Mens Clothes.

Good luck.

[couch]

Vxt22, you did include cotton in your list of desired materials. I presume you're already familiar with Bill's Khakis. Their original M1 model offers a longer rise and a double forward-pleated version. They are cut very full, based on the WWII pattern. These are still available at many retailers and online sources (including Amazon sellers and direct from Bill's web site). They offer chamois cloth and a couple of other cloths in this cut in addition to the classic 8.5 oz twill. The M1 fit is available in a plain-front style in a few more cloths.

[rodes]

Couch, Thanks for adding this. Bill's is very good value for OTR trousers.

[Concordia]

Don't rule out the Bills M2P. Normally I don't like reverse pleats but theirs are so short that they don't present the "crotch box" problem. And while they are shorter and trimmer than the 1s, they are still spacious and classic-looking. I now prefer that cut for long trousers although the M1p manages to work for shorts.

if a visit to the Boston area is possible, the Andover will do MTM in a very traditional way.