Button down collar with double cuffs.

[Etutee]

What's more, I have seen that film several times and don't remember that at all. How could I have missed it?

That's easy to do... we usually tend to ignore or forget things we don't want to see or conversaly speaking, remember the details we like to see. Remember when we discussed the notch lapel cutaway in Astaire's movies? Same thing here...I don't remember this collar-cuff combo either from Notorious.

The famous publicity shot for The Philadelphia Story has both Cary Grant and Jimmy Stewart wearing double-breasted suits with button-down collar shirts, looking back at Katherine Hepburn.

Dear jcusey,

I must admit I find my self on side with Manton on this... that is with respect to your attention on no-shoe related posts . Where in the world you saw button-downs on Grant and Jimmy Stewart? I am 99.9% sure what you are remembering as button-down were either tab or pinned collars.

See Grant, Astaire, and all these people had sort of a pattern through the decades. For example Cary Grant never almost wore jackets with vents during 30s or early 40s. Similarly he almost totally abandoned DBs after 40s, as such I don't remember him EVER wearing a button-down shirt with a DB...especially in late 30s early 1940 when the movie was shot. The only possible exception can be the "hidden" button-downs in which there are snaps underneath the collar and from above it appears regular point / long collar. However, that is different from what Astaire wore (say in that picture from Mr. Boyer's book), which is a true button-down shirt.

I know exactly what picture you are referring to and I am quite positive that neither of them were wearing button-downs... rather the collar was either pinned or tab which made it appear like a button-down. Moreover, I suspect that this also may be the case in that scene from “Notorious”...but I am not quite as positive as I have not seen the movie in a while.

If anyone has that publicity photo from Philadelphia story (with Jimmy Stewart, Cary grant & Katharine Hepburn) kindly share it or provide a link. I would like to know if I have observed wrong.

sincerely
etutee

[Romualdo]

OK. I made that up.

Too bad. I was just checking my ribbed knit cuff inventory in anticipation of an order.

Mr. Kabbaz, if you find any of your ribbed knit cuff inventory, please let me know. I may have a few customers...

[BirdofSydney]

I think I might be able to get at the very heart of the collective objection.

The real issue may be not that the cuffs are doubled over (I notice that my mention of Casino cuffs has not led to my being lashed to the stake quite yet...), but rather to the wearing of cufflinks perhaps? It's hard to imagine links looking informal (though, maybe silk knots could be informal without straying into the realms of novelty).

Maybe longer "rifle" cuffs with three buttons could also be employed? I raise these points as the button down has evolved into a very conservative look, and I like a little dash and panache to everything. Longer collars, and Mother of Pearl buttons are a start, I feel. Interesting, while still appropriate cuffs will be the next step.

To further add to the controversy, what are our dicta regarding the wearing of ties with a button-down? With, of course, sport jacket and odd trousers, not a suit. An ascot would look stupid, but I feel there's something missing if wholly forswearing neckwear. I shall not speak of the Americans who insist on a bowtie with their button-downs.

Cheers,

Eden

[jcusey]

Whether or not there is a rule against buttondowns with French cuffs, Cary Grant was able to do it because he was a paragon of style and elegance.

He was able to bend the rules now and then because he was not only a style leader but one of the greats of the screen.

He once said that he wish that he could be Cary Grant.

Thank you, Mark, for communicating what I was thinking but could not communicate effectively.

[jcusey]

I must admit I find my self on side with Manton on this... that is with respect to your attention on no-shoe related posts . Where in the world you saw button-downs on Grant and Jimmy Stewart? I am 99.9% sure what you are remembering as button-down were either tab or pinned collars.

Etutee, I was looking at the picture on p. 119 of The Elegant Man by Villarosa and Angeli when I typed my post above. I haven't been able to find that exact picture online, but here's another one from that series. You can't actually see the buttons on the collar, but both Grant's and Stewart's collars look button-down to me.

[manton]

Those may not be BD. If I had to bet, I would bet that they are soft point collars, not starched and with no stays.

[RWS]

I'll essay again to rationalize my objection to this now notorious pairing: french cuffs look luxuriant and relaxed, because of the soft roll of abundant cloth; button-downs look tight and constrained.

. . . . what are our dicta regarding the wearing of ties with a button-down? With, of course, sport jacket and odd trousers, not a suit. . . .

I've done this occasionally, but only with cravats, not other neckties (no ascots, and no bowties -- that I can remember; but, as an American . . . ). It isn't the best look, I think, but it has waves of popularity from time to time.

[jcusey]

Those may not be BD. If I had to bet, I would bet that they are soft point collars, not starched and with no stays.

Entirely possible, but how is it that the points are staying glued to the bodies of the shirts if that's the case? In any event, if a collar has all of the characteristics of a button-down except for the buttons, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that it's almost as informal as a button-down?

[Huzir]

But it's precisely those two tiny collar buttons that signify a lack of formality. God, as the architect said, is in the details. A soft straight collar is still much more formal.

[Etutee]

I will double check on the movie and pictures today to make absolutely sure.

In any event, if a collar has all of the characteristics of a button-down except for the buttons, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that it's almost as informal as a button-down?

I will say probably no. To me that is quite a difference. For example double cuffs behave more or less the same as link or single cuff, yet one is an abomination with the wing collar / starched shirt and other is most correct. Or even a better example would be that of link button used on white / summer dinner jackets as opposed to an actual sewn button. With the exception of that small thread in link, both have almost the same characteristics, yet one of them is more formal than the other or more proper.

Plus long lounge / point collars don't quite act like true button downs... primary difference arises from the buttons that keep the end of the points "attached". Now of course, if you were to wear your button-down collars with the points / ends unbuttoned... then indeed they will have almost identical characteristics of a soft long point collar.

This is a great thread and if I have can find some time... you guys can expect pictures from both Notorious & Philadelphia Story.

Sincerely
etutee

[masterfred]

Unless by memory has betrayed me, Cusey's right re: the shirts in that promotional pic for "Philadelphia Story." Both Grant and Stewart are wearing BD shirts w/double-breasted, chalk-striped suits. One can see them more clearly in the picture in "The Elegant Man."

[Etutee]

All right… as pedantic as it is about to get… I stand by my position. Those are not the button-down shirts that were worn in the movie, neither are the ones used in the above posted picture (these are same). If you guys have seen something different in a picture then those shirts were separate from what was worn in that movie.

Observe below an actual picture from the movie The Philadelphia Story from 1940. It has been edited by me so that you can view it better. (Altough beside the topic... for the love of these silly matters, observe Cary Grant's DB jacket)



This is the same outfit as in the above posted publicity picture (which I also have in front of me). You will see here that the collar is worn pinned as I originally suggested. I know my memory is not that weak, especially when it comes to classics. Grant is wearing the collar unpinned for the photo shoot but the rest of the ensemble is same. It is worth mentioning that Grant's shirt is not solid in either of these pictures. It carries very faint and narrow stripes. You need a magnified image to view them.

Below is another picture from the same scene. Note the stress points at the collar created by pin.

Cary Grant in pinned collar shirt

Now to Jimmy Stewart… observe the picture below carefully. You will notice the long soft collar points.



Again, this is the exact shirt, tie and suit he is wearing in the publicity photo above.

As far as jcusey’s observation is concerned…

but how is it that the points are staying glued to the bodies of the shirts if that's the case?

Well… Mr. Cusey they don’t stay glued at all. With Jimmy it was easy to observe because 1/3rd of the time his DB jacket was opened in the movie and thereby making the observation easier. Below is another picture of same outfit.



If you are still not satisfied… view on the multiple links below for additional pictures.

Jimmy Stewart picture 1

Jimmy Stewart picture 2

Jimmy Stewart picture 3

Jimmy Stewart picture 4


Hmm… now I have a feeling that this is more than enough and will stop here unless further comments arise. The last possible exception can be if Jimmy Stewart is wearing a button down shirt with points unbuttoned in the movie… & both the holes (on the collar points) and buttons on the shirt body are so small that they do not appear in any of these pictures. Frankly speaking… I don’t think so this is the case.

I suspect there maybe something twisted about that scene from Notorious also, which got this thread started, but will comment on that once I have all the info (hopefully by tomorrow).

Sincerely
etutee

[arkirshner]

Dear Mr. Tutee,

I should like to acknowledge you not only as a excellent writer but now also a top notch researcher.

[jcusey]

Well, I was motivated by this discussion to buy and watch The Philadelphia Story this evening, and I have to admit that I was almost certainly wholly wrong and Etutee almost certainly wholly correct. I say "almost certainly" because while the case for Stewart wearing something other than a button-down collar is definitive, we never see enough of Grant's collar to be sure. However, in light of what is obvious about Stewart's collar, it seems implausible that Grant's would have been a button-down.

Now I'll have to buy and rewatch Notorious. Darn it all!

[Incroyable]

I noticed the pinned collar with the double-breasted.

Note this look as worn by Paul Bowles: