Good shirtmaker in UK

[alden]

There is no individual artisan beavering away in an attic or basement somewhere to actually make the shirt. I however take a different view - for what that's worth given my limited experience with bespoke; I'm just starting out.

Julian,

It is good to have strong views when you are starting out in something.

Many of the bloggers out there had blogged for years and had loads of suits, even too many of them, before they discovered bespoke. They started out with strong views, coerced a few tailors for freebies in exchange for adverts and canonized themselves "Bespoke Experts." The sheep followed and so, sadly, do the ceaseless stream of adverts. That is the way of the world.

Many years ago, I conceived incorrectly that the internet represented an alternative where subjects could be studied and discussed seriously without the corrupt spin of the traditional medias. In the LL you will hear the views of many people, with varying degrees of real experience in bespoke that they have paid for themselves. You can take or leave any of the advice you find here but at least you will know it is objective.

Cheers

[NJS]

There is no individual artisan beavering away in an attic or basement somewhere to actually make the shirt. I however take a different view - for what that's worth given my limited experience with bespoke; I'm just starting out.

Julian,

It is good to have strong views when you are starting out in something.

Many of the bloggers out there had blogged for years and had loads of suits, even too many of them, before they discovered bespoke. They started out with strong views, coerced a few tailors for freebies in exchange for adverts and canonized themselves "Bespoke Experts." The sheep followed and so, sadly, do the ceaseless stream of adverts. That is the way of the world.

Many years ago, I conceived incorrectly that the internet represented an alternative where subjects could be studied and discussed seriously without the corrupt spin of the traditional medias. In the LL you will hear the views of many people, with varying degrees of real experience in bespoke that they have paid for themselves. You can take or leave any of the advice you find here but at least you will know it is objective.

Cheers

What I find so amazing is that there are, apparently, hundreds of thousands of sheep on the Insta-Experts' bandwaggons - and the figurework (backed-up by a statistics' site) must be a powerful weapon, when bloggers blag the gullible for freebies. The gullible never seem to wonder to themselves why it is that even a couple of thousand new customers do not miraculously appear, after all the advertizing! No doubt, in due couse, they will realize that, while they have indeed been dealing with saints in the subject, they are 'all mouth and no trousers'.
NJS

[Costi]

He studied the pattern, scrutinized the screen, and was convinced that HAL had done his job!

...which is to dispose of humans.
But even HAL can fail. On both tasks.

[NJS]

He studied the pattern, scrutinized the screen, and was convinced that HAL had done his job!

...which is to dispose of humans.
But even HAL can fail. On both tasks.

The trouble with HAL is that he is spending too much time on materializing so that he can agonize over ordering his first batch of bespoke shirts (handwork or not?), rather than keeping his eye on the actual work for his human masters!

NJS

[cathach]

I suspect that the fact that T&A bespoke shirts are made in the same factory as the RTW ones using essentially the same manufacturing process with a few very minor tweaks is what causes some people to classify them as expensive MTO. There is no individual artisan beavering away in an attic or basement somewhere to actually make the shirt. I however take a different view - for what that's worth given my limited experience with bespoke; I'm just starting out.

Don't forget there are a few others you can try around the same price point, http://www.alexanderboyd.co.uk/, http://www.hilditchandkey.co.uk/, http://www.seanoflynnshirtmaker.co.uk/, http://www.russellandhodge.com/, http://www.frankrostron.com/, http://www.buddshirts.co.uk/, http://www.paulineburrows.com/, http://www.anthonysinclair.com/ etc. Make sure you ring around and find who suits you best and will draft you an individual pattern if thats what you want.

Whether T&A accomplish the above in practice is something that I'm probably soon to find out however, having just come back from holiday last night, I think that a few weeks of getting back to my usual eating and exercise regime is probably prudent before presenting myself to be measured.
- Julian

Careful now, always best to be measured at your maximum than your minimum!

[Frans]

Many of the bloggers out there had blogged for years and had loads of suits, even too many of them, before they discovered bespoke. They started out with strong views, coerced a few tailors for freebies in exchange for adverts and canonized themselves "Bespoke Experts." The sheep followed and so, sadly, do the ceaseless stream of adverts. That is the way of the world.

True words. A tailor in London told me last month he had decided to say no to another bold "freebie proposal" by a popular menswear blogger, mentioned on the previous page. They had cooperated before though, but as far as I could understand the friendly critique on the blog has not given as much in return as expected.

[bond_and_beyond]

I am not sure I quite follow with regard to T&A being bespoke or not. They craft an individual paper pattern which is then 'scanned' into a computer and printed on paper again in the factory. It took them 5 trial shirts to get me right. I have a tricky shoulder so they had to keep moving the right shouldef panel forward. Don't think MTM can do that.

BB

[Scot]

It took them 5 trial shirts to get me right

Did you pay for all five?

[yialabis]

I don't know why we keep on about this .. In a thread not so long a go Michael posted some photos of is bespoke shirt making . Here .. http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... s&start=45
I don't believe any Jermyn street shirt maker does this .In fact WE ALL KNOW THEY DON'T . That does not mean they are bad shirt makers , it means they do not do bespoke shirt making anymore . Some never did . I still buy the odd shirt from T&A and Budd as I previously said . They are both very well made in my opinion , they just don't worth their full price especially T& A so I buy them when they are on sale ...

Regards
Vassilis

[bond_and_beyond]

It took them 5 trial shirts to get me right

Did you pay for all five?

No, just paid for the first one, then they took it back four times to re-do. When we all finally were happy with the trial shirt, they completed the balance of 5 shirts (there's a six shirt minimum).

BB

[bond_and_beyond]

I don't know why we keep on about this .. In a thread not so long a go Michael posted some photos of is bespoke shirt making . Here .. http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... s&start=45
I don't believe any Jermyn street shirt maker does this .In fact WE ALL KNOW THEY DON'T . That does not mean they are bad shirt makers , it means they do not do bespoke shirt making anymore . Some never did . I still buy the odd shirt from T&A and Budd as I previously said . They are both very well made in my opinion , they just don't worth their full price especially T& A so I buy them when they are on sale ...

Regards
Vassilis

Well then I guess T&A has never made bespoke shirts then (at least not as long as they've used their factory)?

BB

[pagean]

I happened to put this to T and A earlier today when I stopped by-they beg to differ.

[cathach]

I happened to put this to T and A earlier today when I stopped by-they beg to differ.

Well, sure what did they say to you?

[alden]

I am not sure I quite follow with regard to T&A being bespoke or not. They craft an individual paper pattern which is then 'scanned' into a computer and printed on paper again in the factory. It took them 5 trial shirts to get me right. I have a tricky shoulder so they had to keep moving the right shouldef panel forward. Don't think MTM can do that.

MTM can and does do all of that. The new computerized machines from Italy are excellent. Your pattern undoubtedly came from the computer like in the story I told. And it can be manipulated easily on the screen and corrections made.

The fact that it took five "trial shirts to get you right" is the damning piece of evidence. A traditional bespoke shirtmaker does not dial a fit in on a screen, he fits it onto the body (as shown in pictures of a true bespoke shirt fitting sequence.) If it took five tries, then there were five tweaks on the computer to try and get it right. A real bespoke maker will just about dial in a fit on the first basted muslin fitting. He will rip, recut and refit it until it is right. He won't normally cut cloth until he is sure of his muslin fitting work, or at least sure, he is very, very close.

A well established brand name, and high prices do not guaranty authenticity. An MTM shirt is a bespoke shirt to the degree it is a custom ordered and specified garment destined for a bespeaker. That is how the UK makers fiddle with the truth. If you need the real thing, get the real thing. If you are happy with something else, that is perfectly fine. But do not call a fish a fowl.

Cheers

[Julian]

I am not sure I quite follow with regard to T&A being bespoke or not. They craft an individual paper pattern which is then 'scanned' into a computer and printed on paper again in the factory. It took them 5 trial shirts to get me right. I have a tricky shoulder so they had to keep moving the right shouldef panel forward. Don't think MTM can do that.

MTM can and does do all of that. The new computerized machines from Italy are excellent. Your pattern undoubtedly came from the computer like in the story I told.

I believe that the above is wrong. If one walks round the corner from the Jermyn Street shop and goes into the Bury Street (bespoke) shop then one can see David Gale cutting paper patterns in his work area in the back corner of the shop. The computer comes into it when the paper patterns are sent to the factory in Gloucester where they are stored on a computer using the same technology that used to be used to digitise maps. A fresh copy of the paper pattern is then printed out and used to cut the cloth from the paper pattern. To say that this is somehow not using a paper pattern because it has temporarily been stored in a computer is similar to saying that you would only ever sail with a captain who was using the original map that was drawn for the area being sailed and that anyone using a printed copy of the original map, even though it is a perfect exact scale copy of the original, is in some way compromising your safety.

As for the ability to then take shortcuts and adjust the pattern on the computer rather than re-drafting and re-digitising the paper pattern I have no idea whether that shortcut is taken or not; if it is then I agree that it would be a bad thing. There seem to be a few T&A customers here and it would be an interesting question to know the answer to. I plan to visit in a couple of weeks so will ask the question if someone doesn't beat me to it.

A difference that does arise from digitising the patterns is that, once finished, the paper pattern effectively resides at the factory in Gloucester rather than with David Gale in London so when additional shirts are produced it is a factory worker rather than the original pattern maker who cuts the cloth from the paper pattern but I can't imagine that cutting the cloth from a fine-tuned paper pattern needs any more artistry at that point, surely it is more a matter of accuracy.

- Julian