You get what you pay for but what do you pay for?

[Carless]

Hello,

I wonder if you can help me with some advice? I've had a number of suits made for me over the past few years by a London-based off-Row tailor. These have been excellent (considering the price) and have served me very well as business wear; the tailors I use are a "City" tailor with e.g. lots of professions, lawyers, etc. as clients. I've recently started looking for a new tailor. Why? Partly because I'm in the fortunate position of being able to pay a little more for me suits; also, my tailor is relatively conservative and has been a little reluctant to stray outside his usual bounds. This has been a blessing while starting out in the bespoke world - he's saved me on a few occasions from myself, and he's made me some really solid, classically styled suits, pushed me (at first reluctantly, now willingly!) towards heavier and more textured cloths. However, now I know what I'm doing a bit more, and have a better concept of what I want, I feel this tailor might not be willing or able to deliver.

So, I've spent a while visiting other tailors and kicking the tyres. This has been a very useful and interesting experience, and made me realise exactly what I do and don't like, and also gave me an extremely good feel for how a working relationship might develop. The trouble I now have is that I have a short-list of three and need to chose one! All three seem more than capable of delivering what I want, have a house style that I like, and are people I can see myself getting on with. So, how to separate them? As per the title of my post, I'm generally of the opinion that you get what you pay for but what I'm struggling with is, with a tailor, what is worth paying for? For my shortlist goes:

A. Young cutter, relatively young firm, extremely good eye and sense of style.
B. Established off-row tailor, reasonably well known with an experienced team and everything made in house
C. Top-line tailor, making extremely well made and distinctively styled suits. Their bespoke suits are well out of my price range; they do, however, offer a made-to-measure service where the suits are cut in London, sewn abroad with a relatively high proportion of hand stitching, fully canvassed and, looking at examples, plus from reputation, these are very high quality.

All three are within budget, but there is a spread of about 20% from top to bottom, my short-list goes in ascending order. So, what do I pay for? I could take a chance with A: he's young but got great style, the suits are hand sewn, and from conversations with him, he's a perfectionist so I've no doubt he'll strive to please. However, I know that experience counts and the question remains in my mind, how many years cutting experience do you need really? B is the solid choice: lacking a little of the style of A but making up for it with experience. C would get me access to an extremely good cutter who would, no doubt, make some extremely nice suits; but there's the issue of the limited fitting and machine work compromises of the made-to-measure service that have to be made in order to meet my budget, and at a premium price to the other two.

Or, put another way: style vs experience vs construction vs price.

Any advice gratefully received!

Carless

[MRJ]

Carless

It would be good to put some names here, a specially as you have been careful to be very positive in all your comments- I dislike posts that are highly negative without good grounds. My view is you should rule out no three unless you can go bespoke. It is not comparable with the others. However I would give no 1 a try especially as you say he has a good eye. I believe the cutting apprenticeship is 7 years and if the training was at a top house then I think he will have enough experience. However only order one suit initially. Rgds

[davidhuh]

Dear Carless,

in my opinion, your decision should be between 1 or 2. The third is offering you a label.

Between 1 and 2: You can either be public about the names and have feedback either in public or via PM regarding the tailors you are considering, or you could alternatively test the waters, and have them both making a suit for you

Cheers, david

[Scot]

I am not sure I understand why you want to change at all. Sounds as if your current tailor is doing a pretty good job.

he's saved me on a few occasions from myself, and he's made me some really solid, classically styled suits, pushed me (at first reluctantly, now willingly!) towards heavier and more textured cloths.

Assuming the suits fit, what else does a chap actually need?

now I........ have a better concept of what I want, I feel this tailor might not be willing or able to deliver

What exactly would that be?

[old henry]

I was thinking the same thing Scott. If it aint broke dont fix.

[Mark Seitelman]

Go to all four tailors including your present one.

Order the identical cloth in the same style at all. E.g., solid navy. Then make an educated decision as to who is best.

Also, don't forget to get two pairs of pants with each suit.

Seriously, it is hard to give you advice on this one. However, I know where you are coming from. It sounds like you want a change. A bit of the seven year itch regarding your tailor?

Try one suit with the new tailor. Keep friendly relations with the old tailor. You may keep both!

Good luck.

[Badden]

Some names would be helpful.

From what you've written, def do not go for the 3rd option.

[Carless]

Thanks for all the responses, I wasn't quite expecting such a flurry! I'll try and answer the points raised all together.

"If it ain't broke..." No, you're right, it ain't broke and I'll probably carry on using my existing tailor in some capacity. But, there are some specific reasons for trying something different. First, and this is the biggest one, is that his jackets are pretty light on structure and I definitely want to try something with a more structured chest as a) it's a look I like and b) I think it's a look that will suit my physique, and this is something I don't want to push him on, because it's a little out of repertoire. Couple that with some other stylistic points and I think it's good to try something different - let's face it, if finding a tailor were simply a matter of finding someone who can make a suit fit, then the world would be a boring place! Second, relates a little to the process - I want to find someone who can translate my concept into something concrete and come up with interesting suggestions. Which my current tailor can do, of course, but he's inherently conservative (which is great for business suits, less so for things I might wish to wear outside the office so I end up doing quite a lot of the running for these items!). Third, what he offers isn't strictly bespoke, he cuts off block patterns with modifications. Which is fine, given he does 2-3 fittings usually and I'm of fairly average physique so the suits fit well. However, I'm curious what the difference might be it's hard to judge without the benefit of a relative measure.

And no, it hasn't quite been 7 years but it's getting there .

"The third is offering you a label."

Interestingly, this is what I thought before I stopped by for a chat, but I'm less sure of this now - they seem genuine about wanting to offer a more affordable option by outsourcing the sewing but keeping close tabs on quality, i.e. it doesn't appear to be a marketing ploy. (Unlike some MTM offerings from e.g., cough, the boys at number one, which is more expensive than full bespoke by many other row tailors!). Point taken, and I think it unlikely I'll go down this route (I'll save my pennies & wait for job promotions to get to the position where I can go back there for a full bespoke there ). Though, again, this harks back to the original question: what's the relative value of all the components in the process? Sewing - as long as there's sufficient hand-sewing in the right places, I think I'm less bothered by a bit of machine sewing, and less bothered by geographic location of the sewers, if this enables you to deploy your budget elsewhere. E.g. fit/cut is by and large independent of sewing. I think?! The fitting process is another issue and this would be the main reason not to go down this route.

Relatedly, I think I read a comment on here, something along the lines about younger people not being interested in bespoke, not valuing it, it being in danger of dying, etc. I think the reasons is that it's so damn expensive and, highly likely, it's relatively more expensive (e.g. as a proportion of median wages) than it used to be! As such, I think it's interesting to see the trend where the "holes" in the middle are being filled in. It's not just ready-to-wear straight to fused-and-finished MTM straight to hand-sewn bespoke, people do seem to be trying to offer different compromises at different price points in order to cater for what seems to be a genuine interest among people my age and younger (I have a decent amount of time to go till I'm 40!) in custom made clothes.

I'd rather not divulge names at this stage, as much for my privacy's sake as anything else, though I will as they fall out of the running. I guess I'm just trying to thrash out the decision making process. In an ideal world, I'd have time and money to have items made by tailors on my long-list and start from there

Thanks again to all!

Carless

[NJS]

Nothing useful to add. Sorry for intervening.

[DFR]

It is difficult to know which to recommend without names - there is a considerable amount of reports here and elsewhere which could offer reassurance - or otherwise. Avoid the third they are just peddling a label and is second best. Of the other two, younger members of the profession need to be encouraged and are likely to reward that with good service.

I would therefore go for number one subject to knowing who that is to eliminate anyone who has delivered a bad experience and not what is claimed on the box.

[NJS]

Removed by author.

[ay329]

I would try the 1st & 2nd...and make an odd trouser plus odd jacket with each, as you might just find each of these newer tailors has strength in one aspect over another...especially over your current tailor

Take the new tailors out for a test spin and may your bespoke pleasures reach even new & more exciting horizons

[Screaminmarlon]

Try one suit with the new tailor. Keep friendly relations with the old tailor. You may keep both!
Good luck.

This happens all the time, usually ending up with an extended family of tailors

[hectorm]

If it aint broke dont fix.

Dear Carless,
it might not be broken but it´s definitely not what you want and what you seem to be ready for.
You have done your homework already, so by all means, go ahead and experiment with the young cutter you have identified.
In a costless world I would agree with Mark Seitelman's advice and try to compare the four tailors with the same commission. But you don't have to do that. At least not all at once. Start with option #1 and see if it satisfies all your whims. Then you'll see if it's really worthwhile to move on down your list.
Good luck!

[lxlloyd]

Option A seems to be the one I would take. Without supporting younger cutters, bespoke will simply become more and more expensive as the new blood dries up.

And if you ended up keeping friendly relations with both tailors, you could work with A even after your more conservative tailor has retired. Supporting a tailor early in his work will also hopefully endear you to him slightly. haha. If you think he has a good eye, passion (or perfectionism) and dedication, then that certainly counts for something, especially as i'm assuming he's undergone some apprenticeship. if you saw the product of his work that should be your evaluation. No doubt there aree some tailors who;ve been working longer than the masters of their craft, but who will never measure up... there is always a degree of talent and dedication that throws in variation. from what you say, he has both. You say you're of fairly average build... in that case, the advantage of the second option over the first is diminished, whereas if you had a hinky shoulder.... perhaps it would be more relevant.

One of my teachers used to repeatedly point out that a French hand was no more inherently talented than an Indian one... on the other hand option c involves a heavy carbon footprint, and people valuing the work of those workers as less than those of their in house workers whilst at the same time claiming equality of quality.... a logic loop that takes some twists to follow. If they are genuinely claiming that the quality is of their exacting standard.... then they are exploiting their disadvantaged labourforce. (Although this is clearly a simplification of the ethics of the situation. better to have a low salary than none at all) Either way, I find there is something of a distasteful nature going on.... I have worked in luxury clothing companies as a design intern, and have professors that have specialised in sourcing production... and even if the garments were excellently made in China or India or Eastern Europe (where the foreign manufacturing of luxury garments is concentrated), there was never a situation in which the process was... well... not in the dirtier grey area of morality at some point. (even if it is the indulgence of flying your suit to India and back for several fittings, or even just the one time...) There is always a price for lowering prices... be it in quality of product or quality of life.