Pitti Me

"He had that supreme elegance of being, quite simply, what he was."

-C. Albaret describing Marcel Proust

Style, chic, presence, sex appeal: whatever you call it, you can discuss it here.
NJS

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:29 pm

Luca wrote:
NJS wrote:The basis for any dress surely needs to be some broad acceptance of the age in which we live and a disregard of fashions that have no continuing currency. NJS
With respect, I think that's a contraddiction in terms. :shock:
To be clear, anyone wearing, for instance, a tie or a hat other than a ball cap, outside of a situation when they are more or less required to do so by their job is, in 2013, wildly unaccepting "of the age in which we live". :wink:
The norm of the age, is "smart casual" at funerals and weddings, sweatpants at Michelin-starred Restaurants and gardener-clothes at all casual social gatherings. :(
But I guess we'll jsut ahve to differ on that.
It very much depends on the company that one keeps and, especially, their age group; as well as where you go. You are nearer my children's ages than mine and so our continuing experiences will differ in both of these respects. Most of my oldest friends that are in London, are middle-aged (as am I). We'll pass on the fact that I live in a Sleepy Hollow on the other side of the world and wear swimming shorts and sandals! Those who still work are senior professionals or administrative grade civil servants. All of the men, except one, still wear city suits and ties and most of them have good tailors; although few go as far as bespoke shoes and shirts. Some wear a hat; some do not. The one exception has his own professional practice in the suburbs and wears a blue blazer and has given up ties. None of them would even dream of struggling to find brown shoes to match a blue suit and none would share an elevator with kids in baseball caps (or any man wearing any hat, come to that). The women wear skirts and jackets and blouses. None of them would pitch up to any social event, a restaurant, the theatre (etc.) in town dressed like a broken hedge (although most of them would appear to be exactly that in the sporting field). I do accept that many people, even in London, do dress like derelicts. However, I am not sure that the fact which you identify so well (namely that many modern Britons are lazy, disrespectful slobs), demonstrates that well cut suits, shirts and ties and decent shoes have no continuing currency, in the midst of streets of scarecrows in trackies, trainers, teeshirts and ball caps. I think that Alexander Pope summed it up quite well in the lines from his Essay on Criticism:

In words, as fashions, the same rule will hold;
Alike fantastic, if too new or old:
Be not the first by whom the new are tried,
Nor yet the last to lay the old aside.


Of course, Brummell, whose ascendancy came a century later, did invent some fashions but such an exception not only proves but emphasises the rule and I do know one fellow who wears suits and hats which some might call 'dated' but they are first rate (G&S suits and Lock or Patey hats) and everyone just says ''Oh! there's XYZ''.

When Edmundo Ros ran his famous club in Regent Street he always refused entry to men who were not wearing a suit and tie; including, famously, King Hussein of Jordan and Peter O'Toole. Nowadays, it seems that many high-end establishments (especially of the 'cool' variety) will jettison dress codes in favour of attracting the monied yobs who throng to these places. However, enough places, such as the clubs of St James's (and even the Italian embassy*), are not about to go that way: because enough of us still like it hot. 8)

NJS

*
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... EwAQ&dur=0

Should the caption be:

''The Last Hurrah'' or ''The Secret World''?
hectorm
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Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:52 pm

Luca wrote: The norm of the age, is "smart casual" at funerals and weddings, sweatpants at Michelin-starred Restaurants and gardener-clothes at all casual social gatherings.
Luca,
I know that you wouldn´t approve of such a norm anyway, but happens that I don´t think that is really the norm of our age. At least not yet.
What I see instead are men in suits -or jackets and ties- at funerals and weddings, "smart casual" at sophisticated restaurants, and lots of jeans and shorts (outdoors) at casual social gatherings. No frocks or spats, but still a full notch above your depicted norm.
Maybe -as Nicholas says (and sorry for interrupting the thread)- it depends on the crowd you hang out with.
NJS

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:01 am

hectorm wrote:
Luca wrote: The norm of the age, is "smart casual" at funerals and weddings, sweatpants at Michelin-starred Restaurants and gardener-clothes at all casual social gatherings.
Luca,
I know that you wouldn´t approve of such a norm anyway, but happens that I don´t think that is really the norm of our age. At least not yet.
What I see instead are men in suits -or jackets and ties- at funerals and weddings, "smart casual" at sophisticated restaurants, and lots of jeans and shorts (outdoors) at casual social gatherings. No frocks or spats, but still a full notch above your depicted norm.
Maybe -as Nicholas says (and sorry for interrupting the thread)- it depends on the crowd you hang out with.
You are, surely, not interrupting but adding a very valid point of view. There is, as I have demonstrated, in any reasonable comparison between the picture in the the link to the very recent, Italian Embassy 'do', and Luca's most recent post, some hypocrisy at work in the 'fashion industry' (including SR and SR-type business in London). On the one hand, it reasonably sees the need to appeal to the monied, ball-capped-hipster-celeb crowd while, at the same time, clinging to the roots of Ye Olde England. I make no apologies for saying this; since readers are, after all, members of the London Lounge and seem, overall, to seek out those roots; to keep the stock alive.

Overall, though, if chaps want to go out to an Embassy black tie 'do' in velvet smoking suits and house slippers (and the doormen let them through), then - why not, by Jove! It is, after all, a lot better than trackies, tees and trainers; whether or not the diplomats, themselves, look as though they have rather been taken by surprise.

We must, though, accept the necessary implication of Luca's last post: that the diplomats at evening 'dos' in the Italian embassy are usually unused even to suits and ties at evening parties there. For myself, I regret that modern Italians might have slipped into the slipshod ways of so many modern Britons.
NJS
hectorm
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Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:53 pm

NJS wrote: Overall, though, if chaps want to go out to an Embassy black tie 'do' in velvet smoking suits and house slippers (and the doormen let them through), then - why not, by Jove!
My Godfather, a well-respected high level career diplomat, almost always hosted his black-tie dinner parties wearing a velvet smoking jacket and slippers (at home or at his club). He thought that was only his prerogative. Some of his guests, aware of the fact that some Cohibas smoking was to follow, sometimes showed up for dinner sporting their own velvet garments (don´t remember about the slippers though). They were allowed in but they were frowned upon.
NJS

Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:18 pm

hectorm wrote:
NJS wrote: Overall, though, if chaps want to go out to an Embassy black tie 'do' in velvet smoking suits and house slippers (and the doormen let them through), then - why not, by Jove!
My Godfather, a well-respected high level career diplomat, almost always hosted his black-tie dinner parties wearing a velvet smoking jacket and slippers (at home or at his club). He thought that was only his prerogative. Some of his guests, aware of the fact that some Cohibas smoking was to follow, sometimes showed up for dinner sporting their own velvet garments (don´t remember about the slippers though). They were allowed in but they were frowned upon.
Hestor - as the host, he was absolutely right!

NJS
Luca
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Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:28 pm

@ NJS and @ hectorn:
I take your point (and appreciate the care with which it was made). I possibly overegged the pudding to make a point (i.e., that elegance can and often does lie outside the mainstream).

As you point out, it does matter what company you keep. In my case, having always worked at the socially unfashionable, geeky end of the finance, that means largely expats and lower-middle-class striver types. No doubt the home countries crowd remains more polished and London’s comparable formality and excellence of dress (still, despite the slobs and chavs) is one of its great attractions for me. Even if my social milieu avers toward a rather grim informality, they are happy to recognise elegance, rather than be puzzled or amused by it.
NJS

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:10 pm

Luca wrote:@ NJS and @ hectorn:
I take your point (and appreciate the care with which it was made). I possibly overegged the pudding to make a point (i.e., that elegance can and often does lie outside the mainstream).
It would be difficult to argue with that. The main point that you were making was that it lies outside the mainstream more and more. We were just trying to say that it is, however, still alive and kicking.

NJS
ethandesu
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Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:44 am

I perhaps am the wrong person to weigh in on the subject - I am in the industry, often at Pitti, and have been known to take pictures of myself in bespoke clothing, but after reading through I thought it worth adding the thoughts of someone who does represent that side of things.
Pitti has, for the most part, become more about overly tight jackets that would leave a gents rear rather cold in the winter, and enough bracelets to correct a dropped shoulder on those who wear them, but that has more to do with the mainstream press and industry adopting tailored clothing than it is about the classicists losing their way. Every time I am in Pitti I am struck by how amazingly elegant the old guard of the Italian, French, English, German, Japanese and Korean industries are. That we see more press of the badly dressed and heavily over-compensating says more about what the mainstream press is after - for most it takes years of appreciating classic clothing before we get to a level that we are confident in the small details and subtleties of fit that we here can discern. The mainstream industry hasnt the time nor the eye to pick up on these points, so they latch on to what is obvious, and to us obviously over-cooked.
While I will not argue that the standard of dress doesn't measure up to what I imagine the golden age of menswear was, it is still a lot better than the last two decades that I have been involved in this industry. While many go to extremes, and ridiculousness abounds, there are definitely more men showing an interest in dressing well. While most will end up with unbuckled double monks for a season or two before they go back to sneakers, some persist, and might even find their way here on LL in time, with enough patience to explore this world of enthusiasts we have created.

Again, I am a pitti going, instagramming 30-something that wears hats and overly polished shoes, so my opinion can be ignored for the most part.

ethandesu
davidhuh
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Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:28 am

Dear Ethan,

I think you make a very important point here. What you describe is exactly how the press is operating. The Beppe Modenese on this planet don't make a good picture in their uninformed eyes :cry:

But I'm much looking forward seeing more pictures from you. You are one of the most gifted menswear photographers around.

Cheers, David
Frederic Leighton
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Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:59 pm

I was reading this old thread again this evening, taking refuge from some seasonal sartorial chaos, and probably from myself too. I'm not sure how it happened that just few minutes later I was coming across a rejuvenating reminder of why we wear shoes:
R. Maharshi wrote:Wanting to reform the world without discovering one's true self is like trying to cover the world with leather to avoid the pain of walking on stones and thorns. It is much simpler to wear shoes.
Regards,
f
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