Expertise Needed in Bespoke Tailor

[SouthPender]

May I post the second part of my question from an earlier post here. I think that the title and first question of that post (bespoke tailors in Vancouver) have probably resulted in members feeling they didn't have a contribution to make, whereas the second question seems like one that most could answer.

Until now, all of my suits and jackets have been RTW. I want to move into bespoke tailoring now, but am unsure whether I could expect good results with the local tailors. My "Part 2" question from the earlier post:
Suppose I were to purchase some very fine cloth for a suit or jacket independently of the tailor who would make the garment. Is it true that any bespoke garment (assuming at least moderate competency on the part of the tailor) would be superior to a RTW, or even MTM garment? The fabric would be superior (let's assume), but does it follow that the finished bespoke garment would, ipso facto, be a better fit and just simply look better than the best I could do through RTW? I'm assuming here that I would carefully choose a silhouette and style that I liked before the tailor made the pattern. Or is the reality that the finished garment could be inferior to a good RTW suit/jacket in fit and quality of construction?

The corollary question is: Is it necessary to trust the job to only a well-known tailor with a reputation for excellence? Perhaps this is a naive question, with an obvious answer. If so, I apologize. However, it's one I have to answer before proceeding. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[maxnharry]

I too am very new to bespoke clothing, but the most important thing that I think I have learned thus far is that fit is everything. If your tailor is familiar with suitmaking, the result should be better than a RTW off the rack, but not necessarily better than an RTW suit perfectly fitted by a tailor.

Now if your tailor was not familiar with suit making, hadn't made one in a long time, or was disposed toward fusing, cutting corners, etc. you very well could end up with a lesser garment than a top quality RTW.

The easiest and surest path (IMHO) is to engage a tailor with an excellent reputation, but because bespoke is more art than art than science, I have heard of persons have trouble from time to time with some of the most well known of tailors.

I think the surest route is:

1. Engage a tailor with a good reputation for suitmaking
2. Make sure that you and the tailor can communicate and don't have personality "issues"
3. Communicate your desires to the tailor about construction, style, etc. Use words, pictures, existing garments.
4. Take care in selecting your fabric (almost as important as fit)
5. Let the tailor do his work
6. Dont rush fittings and understand that you may have to point things out to your tailor that you don't like.
7. Make sure you are satisifed with your garment when you pick it up. Your tailor wants you to be happy
Repeat

[SouthPender]

Thanks, Maxnharry. I have spoken to three tailors in Vancouver, all of whom do make bespoke suits/jackets (and, as far as I can tell, on a fairly regular basis). One of these is a tailor whom I have had do many alterations for me over the years. The others were recommended by menswear stores. Still, I wonder. Can even a tailor who has made many garments just generally operate at a level that is lower than one would want? Is it possible (likely) that with such a tailor, the fit just wouldn't be that great? Do tailors differ from one another in construction details that would be visible--such as stitches per inch, fineness of seams, balance of sides, etc.? The tailors I've consulted with all use canvas construction in their jackets. (Actually I wasn't aware that a one-person operation could produce a fused garment.)

Let me put it another way. Suppose that I can find a tailor in Vancouver who is competent and about average. How much different--in a visible way--would a suit from him be from one by a tailor with a widely-known reputation? If it would really make a difference, then I should perhaps try to find such a tailor, by looking outside of Vancouver (assuming none are very accomplished here) at cities like Victoria and Seattle.

[TVD]

Looking through the posts on the London Lounge, you will find many excellent insights and suggestions concerning how best to engage with a tailor and manage the process of commissioning bespoke garnments. Browse, read and feel free to ask questions.

However, as you are new to the process, and we have all been there, I would venture one some basic points. Decide what style / cut you want. You may know enough to say that it is Neapolitan, or Savile Row. Or all you can tell is a certain politician or actor wears the style you look for, or a certain RTW brand is known for it. You can recognise this style, but you cannot yet specify its details. Therefore you must chose a tailor who cuts in this way as a matter of course. The London Lounge members will gladly help you identify what you want, and who is best suited to provide it.

Once you have been through the process with an irreproachable craftsman a number of times, it may be possible for you to venture to some local source, who may not usually produce this cut, and by copying, advising, and modifying establish a mutually profitable relationship. But to expect you can do this before you have the necessary experience would be somewhat optimistic. We have all learned a lot over our years as bespoke customers, and more often by mistakes than successes.

A final comment on cost. The great tailoring houses of the world are expensive, some more so than others. However, they offer choice, advice and reliability. Trying to go cheap, especially when new to the game, will invariably result in compromises that you will no longer consider acceptable as your expertise grows. Ultimately, only the best will do, and will provide better value in the long term. If you must economise, do so by chosing hard wearing cloth and having fewer, but better things made.

[maxnharry]

I think I would try to first engage a local tailor and since you have a few who make bespoke clothing regularly, it seems you have a ready resource.

I don't have any tailors near me who can do bespoke but have worked with some overseas tailors in the past and currently on MTM and bespoke. With the exception of one, all made good garments that were the equal of most RTW stuff out there, but weren't as excellent as I had hoped or diverged from one of my specifications.

My current tailor has done everything as I have asked and endeavors to ensure satisfaction, but it took me a while to find him and also some time for me to become educated enough to know what to ask for. I suspect though that I become more knowledgeable, the bar will rise higher for my tailor.

If I was in your position, I think I would engage the best local tailor to make a blazer of sport coat to see how it turned out and how much I enjoy working with him.

Having had the pleasure to live near Naples, Italy, I learned that the best dressed of Italians having a long term relationship with their tailors and visit regularly. I think that the building of a relationship is important.

[westender]

As TVD said, pick a tailor and work with him. Initially you will need to work with him to get the fit right, but after the first few suits he should have your pattern spot on and then it just becomes a matter of details on a particular suit. Personally I dispense with the first fitting as my pattern is accurate enough now for it not really to be necessary and any minor tweaking can be done at the second fitting (I know this approach is heresy to some but I am impatient).

I think one of the best guides to quality is the coat back, is the line right, is it smooth, how does the shape change when the coat is unbuttoned, when you move your arms. A tailor may cut corners here because it is not as obvious to the wearer, it is also where most RTW falls down as inevitably they cannot match your back and because it is a large plain area any faults standout.

In a lot of cases a tailor will not do all the work, he will send some of it out to be done as piecework. This is not necessarily a bad thing, do you want a cutter attempting to sew your coat or would you rather have a coatmaker doing the sewing? What it does mean is that you can have a quality control problem if the tailor starts using different outworkers (he may not be able to get his prefered outworker, or he may be trying to cut costs) so make sure you find out if he changes them because the whole garment can change.

So my advice at the end of all that? Try your local tailor, and yes, there is a noticeable difference between bespoke and RTW if it is done well.

[Houndstooth]

Dear SouthPender

In your original final para you ask: "Is it necessary to trust the job to only a well-known tailor with a reputation for excellence?"
I would say that the reputation for excellence is very important and an important benchmark for the purchaser. Such a reputation will have been hard-won over a long period, and in order to maintain it the tailor will do his very best to deliver a garment that does not let either you or he down.
Of course, such excellence usually comes at a financial cost. However, my suggestion would be to try as best you can not to compromise on cost, and not to be misled by apparent bargain pricing.
As a rule of thumb you will get more (a)satisfaction, (b)wear and (c) ultimate value for money [a combination of (a) and (b)]by being prepared to pay the cost of excellence.It may take you longer to 'build' your wardrobe, but you will derive greater satisfaction.
If you are a seeker after Savile Row quality, then it's worth having at the back of your mind that current SR pricing for a 2-pce suit in a good cloth is roughly around GBP 1750-2000 excluding purchase tax.

Having said all the above, of course most of us have budget limitations (I personally purchase at the lower end of the SR stratum), and I think it's perfectly fair to be open with your tailor about your budget parameters. He will be hoping for a long-term relationship, and therefore may well be prepared to offer an introductory discount/ or a discount for payment in advance (though be a little cautious here)/ or a discount if you select from an existing stocked cloth/etc.

There are many things to look out for when selecting a tailor (some big, some small); here are some thoughts:
# reputation.
# does the pricing broadly correlate with the apparent quality and reputation of the product?
# do the tailor's own clothes fit well and look balanced and trim?
# what construction methods does he use, and how many fittings are involved? (For a first bespoke commission I would think 3 fittings is a minimum).
# ask to see some of his garments. Check out the neatness of the sewing (eg. on buttonholes) and the quality of the fabric (a good tailor will 'insist' on good quality fabrics).
# if possible, try on a finished garment in as close a size to your own as possible. In a bespoke garment this ought to convey a sense of comfort and relative lightness, even luxury.

Hoping this may be helful,
Houndstooth

[SouthPender]

TVD, Westender, and Houndstooth, many thanks for taking the time to provide solid, experience-based advice. I think my dilemma will revolve around whether any tailor in Vancouver is good enough to produce a superior bespoke garment. The prices here are far lower than those you have suggested, for example, Houndstooth, with quotes so far running around 500 GBP for a 2-piece suit. The tailor who has handled all my alterations on RTW suits and jackets over the years (and done what has appeared to me to be good work with these alterations), for example, would do a suit for about 500 GBP. However, when I asked him about how long the process would take, he said about 3 weeks. This didn't give me confidence!

My original query was really motivated by my wondering whether such a suit would actually be superior to RTW (with perhaps extensive alteration work if necessary) simply because it was bespoke. The plan I had in mind was to eliminate the possible problem of lower-quality fabric by taking care of that myself. This might raise the price to something on the order of 700-800 GBP, still far lower than the prices of top tailors. I'm not fully knowledgeable about the variables that distinguish a top-flight tailor from a lesser one. It might be possible to put together a checklist of features that I'd want with a local tailor who, although not used to providing all of these things, could do so adequately if they were required. One thing that I had wondered was whether a bespoke suit could ever turn out fitting more poorly than a RTW one because of poor work from a tailor, even one with lots of bespoke work going on.

[TVD]

Bad bespoke can be much, much worse than RTW. After all, you only buy RTW that fits adequately. If a tailor fails to get things right, you are stuck with the disaster and at best will be allowed to walk away completely. At worst, you will have spent a lot of money for something you will never wear.

Secondly, due to mass production and specialisation in the manufacturing process, most RTW is rather neatly finished. It may be machine stitched, but looks acceptable. Bad hand stitching on a bespoke suit can look very coarse and scruffy indeed.

I would strongly recommend to chose only a tailor who can show you some of his work. An alterations tailor who has not cut a suit for years may be a bit of a risk, although he may be perfectly capable to do it.

Basically, ask yourself what you would expect an ambitious, talented tailor to look for in his career. Quite clearly, it would be a successful business with his name above the door (or an ancient name with a glorious reputation), and a long list of happy regular clients. If you can fill your order books cutting cloth from the best mills for discerning (and correspondingly rich) customers in pleasant, even luxurious premises, why would you accept anything less? Yes, sometimes you do pay for a name, and the associated glamour, but the markups of most good tailors are not indicent.

Years ago when I was reading Le Carre's Tailor of Panama, I was not sure the tailoring bits were that technically precise, but the passages where the tailor considers it his pride and duty to make his customer look "a million dollars" is quite an astute observation. Our quest really is to find such a tailor, and educate ourselves sufficiently to make the best possible use of his resources.

You quite clearly like your alterations tailor. So do take into account all the risks, try to have a look at something he has done recently, and give it a go. After all, the personal relationship is important.

Good luck.