Summer lining

[Robin Milford]

When I am surfing web I have found this which you may like.

http://www.exudemagazine.com/fashion-be ... mmer-suit/

[rewozz]

I have used both Ermazine from Weldons and Bembergs from my tailor's stock. What are the differences between the two? I have been told by Weldons that very few S.R. tailors order anything other than Ermazine from them, for suits....my feeling was that it is less shiney and perhaps a bit more similar to silk than Bemberg... Weldons don't have a big choice of colours in Ermazine. Is Bemberg more usual for suits in heavier cloths? Are there different weights of Bemberg?.. and what about satin...would it ever be used for suiting? I have little knowledge in linings...so clear explainations on the merits of each would be very helpful.!...thanks...Rowly.

Necromancer post, I would like to know if anyone has any insight into this as I have just received my 14 oz linen from H&S that I'm about to make a summer suit of and I'm still undecided on the lining.

Thanks

P.S.

What's a "classic" lining color for a cream linen suit?

[dkst]

I have experimented with a few different linings, including Ermazine (a type of viscose). I find it to be indistinguishable from Bemberg in terms of relative coolness. Ermazine seems to be a slightly more durable and crisp lining, whereas Bemberg is softer and nicer to wear in my opinion.

If you're buying your own linings, I highly recommend The Lining Company (http://www.theliningcompany.co.uk). They have a wide selection of high quality linings. If you click on Linings, then Taffeta, you will see three that I have used and recommend highly:

Acetate/Bemberg Taffeta (60/40 blend)
Bemberg Cupro Ponginette
Ermazine - 100% Viscose Taffeta

The Acetate/Bemberg blend has a slightly more of a crisp papery feel to it compared to the Bemberg.

The other thing I've done for a summer lining is use an extremely lightweight (nearly non-existant) cotton/silk voile purchased from a local fabric shop. It is difficult to work with, requiring starching and careful setting of the machine to sew properly, but it's probably the ultimate in cool linings. This would be acceptable for a body lining, then I would recommend using something more slippery in the sleeves (Bemberg). It would be important for your tailor to fell the sleeve lining to the outershell cloth at the sleeve seam allowance so that it's not simply tacked to the flimsy voile, because the sleeve lining seam comes under a fair bit of strain during wear.

Hope that helps.

[rewozz]

Many many thanks! That link is awesome.

I was told by my tailor to avoid anything with Acetate (for warm weather), what's your opinion?

[dkst]

Your tailor probably has more experience than I do. I have a double breasted coat with a 100% acetate lining and I don't find it warm at all. But this is very subjective. Anecdotal reports like mine aren't very scientific.

Since most linings are tightly woven and don't breathe much, one of their most important functions is absorption of moisture (water carries a lot of heat). That's why polyester makes such a terrible lining, it's like wearing a plastic bag. As far as I know, acetate absorbs moisture comparably to other lining materials (Bemberg, viscose, etc).

The actual weight of the material plays a factor as well. I think fancy woven designs ("Jacquards") tend to be a bit heftier than plain linings.

[couch]

Bemberg cupro (short for cuproammonium) and Ermazine are both types of rayon (my understanding is that cupro is usually made as a finer fiber than viscose rayon) and both they and acetate are derived from cellulose rather than petroleum polymers. Acetates and triacetates often are less absorptive of water and water vapor than rayons; this makes them somewhat more stain and crease resistant, but in theory somewhat less comfortable as linings. Nylon and polyester are both petroleum-based polymers that are naturally hydrophobic and thus can only be made to wick rather than absorb. My tailors have always recommended Ermazine over Bemberg if coolness is desired; it may be that this has to do more with the weave and fiber thickness than inherent properties of the fibers themselves. The taffetas (Ermazine and the acetate blend) will have a crisper feel and more texture in the weave than the usual Bemberg ponginette, which has a smoother surface. That smooth surface places more lining fiber in direct contact with the shirt/skin than does the taffeta, and may account for the reputation of Ermazine as a better choice for lining summer jackets. I can't make a direct comparison because all my jackets are Ermazine lined, and my only Bemberg lining (a satiny twill) is on a winter topcoat.

[rewozz]

Thank you gentlemen, I will begin with Ermazine!

I'll try Bemberg Cupro Ponginette when I get a new summer sports jacket, I enjoy comparing things like these myself

[cathach]

I have used both Ermazine from Weldons and Bembergs from my tailor's stock. What are the differences between the two? I have been told by Weldons that very few S.R. tailors order anything other than Ermazine from them, for suits....my feeling was that it is less shiney and perhaps a bit more similar to silk than Bemberg... Weldons don't have a big choice of colours in Ermazine. Is Bemberg more usual for suits in heavier cloths? Are there different weights of Bemberg?.. and what about satin...would it ever be used for suiting? I have little knowledge in linings...so clear explainations on the merits of each would be very helpful.!...thanks...Rowly.

Ermazine is a viscose (possibly made from natural materials) and Bemberg aka cupro-ammonium is a trademarked rayon (named for its inventor JP Bemberg) made from plant cellulose. The main difference I believe is the weave used, a twill normally being heavier (circa 120g) and firmer or a taffeta being more open and lighter (c. 85g).

To further confuse the issue the trimming companies often use terms interchangeably or use archaic terms, a taffeta type Bemberg for example often being called a ponginette as well. Many sites use terms such as twill, satin, and taffeta as being indicative of fibre composition instead of as we know a particular type of weave.

Apart from that I can't really find out why certain tailors use one over the other. They're also roughly the same in price. I've only had cupro twill in my own clothing. I imagine the most important factor is to make sure that the base yarn of whatever you use whether rayon or viscose etc. is derived from a natural material, ensuring it has the necessary qualities of breathability and absorption.

[couch]

Cathach, I believe we are saying the same thing with two possible exceptions. Viscose and rayon are to some degree interchangeable terms, sometime used as a compound ("viscose rayon"), for a plant (i.e., cellulose) -derived fiber produced by chemical treatments ("In Europe, though, the fabric itself became known as "viscose," which has been ruled an acceptable alternative term for rayon by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission."--Wikipedia). It is also known historically as "art silk." There are several methods for producing it, though apparently the term "viscose" derives originally from a stage in the carbon disulfide/alkali method rather than the cuprammonium method (of which a later improved version was patented by Bemberg). The Wikipedia entry on "rayon" treats the history in some detail for those interested in minutiae. Other more recent types of rayon that use a variety of source plants include Modal and lyocell (Tencel). For our purposes you are right that the main point is that these semi-synthetics are both cellulose derived and retain significant water absorptive capabilities, unlike petroleum-derived synthetics.

As I said, I believe you are also right that the weave is an important determinant of the lining's thermal performance, and that taffetas (more open in weave and, as was said earlier, more "papery" in feel initially) are probably preferable where a cooler-wearing lining is desired, other things (e.g., weight) being equal. Where I may have been mistaken was in thinking that "ponginette" was an old term for a smooth-surface weave like a satin or twill. It is certainly also applied to silk, so maybe one of our silk experts can elaborate. What I intended to convey is that most Bemberg lining cloths I've been shown have a smooth satin-like or definite twill weave. If Bemberg ponginette is indeed a taffeta weave of similar characteristics to Ermazine taffeta's weave, then the performance difference between these two would presumably depend on the specific fiber/yarn characteristics. Given the high sheen for which Bemberg is known, I assume that the yarns are made and woven in such a way that the fibers are packed closely and highly parallel, which would yield a reflective surface but might not maximize breathability (compare with the effect on breathability of high-twist yarns used in frescos). But this difference might be relatively small in practice.