Full Review - Richard Lim Tailor & Finished Summer Jacket

[coolal]

Having thought more about my original comment regarding the coat's fit and cut, the ease in the cut is fine (even if I think that a closer fit would compliment your physique better) but it could do with more three dimensional shaping in the chest and upper back especially around the shoulder blades. This isn't necessarily achieved by having garments skintight but with judicious use of the iron to help the cloth wrap gracefully around one's frame rather than draping straight down. When I asked my (then prospective) cutter about his ironwork, he simply replied, "The iron is as important as the needle."

- C

cdo, thanks for elaborating on your initial comment. I spent some time contemplating your criticisms and started to consider the implications of posture. It's my opinion that my inconsistent posture has partially played into your comments. When "at attention" I find that I fill the jacket in a way that makes the jacket feel like a leaner cut. It pulls ever so slightly at the front button and creates more shape in the chest and lapels. I've tried to capture this in the following pictures.

I've noticed that I have two distinct postures and I change between them almost unconsciously:

A) This is my "at attention" pose. It's what I typically find myself using in front of a mirror and consequently the same pose I use at the tailor.

B) This is the byproduct of poor posture from endless hours in front of my computer. My shoulders pull forward and down, while my whole body hunches over a tad. This is the pose I typically adopt in front of the camera when there is no mirror.


I remember reading, on the forums, that some tailors say they cut a jacket for how their client stands normally, others cut for how their client should stand. The latter is an anecdote I read in regards to a Savile Row tailor (not sure who).

Posture "A" is how I should stand, while posture "B" is how I find myself standing when I'm not paying attention to posture. In the context of the jacket, I wouldn't call one "right" or "wrong". That said, I think it's obvious that each pose creates a completely different look. "A" is more stout and has more of a chest depending how "at attention" I am. "B" falls off the shoulders and drapes down across my chest. A lot airier, but also cooler to wear.


Both are comfortable poses to keep while wearing the jacket. However, I thought it'd be interesting to share the implications of posture, picking the "right" one and keeping it consistent.

[Costi]

Great post, coolal! Quite educative. Don't they almost look like two different jackets?
It has often been written (by myself, too) that we should keep a "natural" posture while being measured or fitted at the tailor's. However, it is true that we don't have have ONE natural posture - it depends on the circumstances, on our mood, on the presence or absence of a mirror. A snapshot taken while we walk will show yet another different jacket. I guess we should not confuse photography with real life. Tailors should not do that, either - the coat needs to be made so as to allow easy movement; I have seen coats that looked great while standing still, but were terrible to wear - they pulled in all directions, felt restrictive and looked tortured when seated.

[Cooked]

I had a basted fitting at a new tailor recently: he asked me to walk around the shop a couple of times while he stood and scrutinised. I'd never had this before (at the other two tailors I have tried) and I liked the idea that he was able to see how the suit looked in motion as well as at rest. I also noticed that I stood more naturally while in the shop away from the mirror. I await the results with interest. Is it common practice?

[Simon A]

I think it is not a common practice, so full marks to your tailor.

[coolal]

Great post, coolal! Quite educative. Don't they almost look like two different jackets?
It has often been written (by myself, too) that we should keep a "natural" posture while being measured or fitted at the tailor's. However, it is true that we don't have have ONE natural posture - it depends on the circumstances, on our mood, on the presence or absence of a mirror. A snapshot taken while we walk will show yet another different jacket. I guess we should not confuse photography with real life. Tailors should not do that, either - the coat needs to be made so as to allow easy movement; I have seen coats that looked great while standing still, but were terrible to wear - they pulled in all directions, felt restrictive and looked tortured when seated.

Thanks a lot Costi! It really is quite amazing how different the jacket looks. When I'm at attention, the jacket really takes on a more structured look. However, when I stoop, it looks a lot softer and falls off the shoulders. What surprises me most is that each has its own pros / cons. Ultimately, my primary concern is if will I tailor my next jacket to my stooped posture. My fear being that when I stand at attention, the suit will pull far too much. Finding the middle ground between a jacket that looks great with good posture, and holds together when I stoop, is going to be the next big challenge. It's a variable I never considered.

I had a basted fitting at a new tailor recently: he asked me to walk around the shop a couple of times while he stood and scrutinised. I'd never had this before (at the other two tailors I have tried) and I liked the idea that he was able to see how the suit looked in motion as well as at rest. I also noticed that I stood more naturally while in the shop away from the mirror. I await the results with interest. Is it common practice?

Very interesting cooked, in all the reading I've done on the forums, I've never heard much mention of the fit analysis beyond time in front of a mirror. I'm glad you noticed the same thing as me. The mirror certainly has a largely unnoticed effect on posture that has to be factored in.

I think it is not a common practice, so full marks to your tailor. Some tailors will furrow their brows when you start swinging an imaginary tennis racket, marching about or lounging in a chair in their shop to test a jacket's fit. I now always drop to the floor in the tailor shop and do ten push-ups; if the jacket restricts me from doing so, it needs adjustment. If I cannot play a very gentle game of tennis in a jacket buttoned-up, I haven't commissioned it properly. Others may have different ideas, but I love a functional, comfortable jacket.

Simon, I would have to carefully schedule my fittings if I adopted such a practice I do, however, love the idea of a thorough workout while wearing a jacket as confirmation of its fit. I plan to adopt some type of routine to test jackets at every stage. A mock forearm and backhand serve in front of the mirrors sounds like a great idea!

[Costi]

Coolal, either way you'll have a perfect-looking fit for one posture and an apparently problematic fit for the other. But if the jacket is comfortable through a RANGE of postures and movements, if it doesn't restrict your movements (as Simon describes ), then you can be happy about it - you are not going to stand like a mannequin in a shopwindow for your coat to be analyzed. And it would be a mistake to let the best look of the coat dictate your posture or the way you move - but I suppose you already know that.

[alden]

Coolal

Excellent review, written the way a review should be. And a great looking coat.

We all have a few postures given we are made of muscles, tendons, bones and not marble. A good tailor will look to see how you stand and move when you are not standing in front of the mirror with the cameras rolling. He will fit what his instincts teach him about you. The finished coat might look different when you stand at attention in front of the mirror, but it will look great the rest of the time and when you calculate how many minutes in a life you spend in front of the glass, that is a good thing.

The side shots of A and B would teach us more if we could see all of the coat, and most importantly, the back. The back tells us more, when viewed from the side, about the fit of a coat than the front does, though an expert will see what’s going on in back from the front (telltale wrinkles under the arm and into the chest.) If you have chance, show us some full shots from the side.

Cheers

Michael Alden

[JCH]

Coolal:

Posture A when a pretty woman is walking by, posture B after she has passed? Something I appreciated was the clear and close views afforded of the Brisa cloth itself, as in the shots of the sleeve and buttons. One can see how rich and robust it looks. Well done.

[Taller]

Dear Coolal,

A very instructive post. Thank you for sharing this with us - and a thank you to all who commented with such equally constructive comments. (Memo to self: act naturally when being measured... )

Taller

[coolal]

Hi everyone. Here's a quick update from a fitting I had last week. My first time bespeaking a three piece suit and my first pair of full rise trousers! I believe I am a convert on both fronts.

The cloth is an English super 120 pindot (midnight blue with navy pin dots). Not sure of the actual mill; the cloth was purchased from International Silk and Woolens in Los Angeles (so I trust the sourcing). After experiencing the gamut of Cloth Club fabrics (from photographing them) I've started to get a good sense for the heavier cloth weights. This super 120 appears to be around 11-12oz and seems well finished.


-The jacket is a peak lapel (I drafted the lapel shaper again), 2 button, with side vents. Also experimenting with extra high arm holes (reason why one sleeve is off; had to check spacing and adjust upwards) and spalla camicia. I know the shirt shoulder is a bit out of place on a 3 piece, but I'll never know until I try it.


-The pants are my first full rise (buttoning over the navel counts as full rise, right?). They are based off my previous order, so a trial pair wasn't required; just some adjustments to the pants pictured (less break, clean up the seat, etc).


-The vest is a 5 button (I'll try 6 next time).


Front with jacket:



Back with jacket:



Vest Front:



Vest Back:



I'll be sure to post pics from the next fitting.

[dempsy444]

Very nice post Coolal. That is the first illustration where I could clearly see what tailors mean when they say posture can affect how a suit appears to fit. I think the jacket looks comfortable and sharp. Good choice on details.

However, it's interesting to see how the tailors own clothes don't seem to fit at all. I guess he just wants to be comfortable.

[Giuseppe Mancuso]

Non capisco le critiche fatti di alcuni , riguardo particolari a giacca finita, e confrontarla con altri.
Ignorano il fatto che a quel prezzo nessuna compagnia le da quel servizio.

La prima prova ( cosa che grante firme non fanno) gia questo le da il diritto di definirsi un abito su misura,
Su misura non e' seguire style , ma e' fare il vestito rispettando : misure, conformazione e non meno importante cio che il cliente vuole , esempio la forma dei petti ( che ad altri piacciano o no non e' importante.)

Chi paga molto di piu' del signore non ha la possibilita" di scelta : nei lapel , front, collar gorge . E spesso dovuto all'assenza della prima prova ad abito finito , ricevono la giacca : 2'' grante davanti , maniche 1" lunghi o corti ,

La figura del signore qualora volesse seguire style ,puo' benissimo vestire l"abito gia fatto. Ma il signore ha i suoi gusti vuole essere differente quind fa bene ad antare dal sarto.

[Costi]

I don't understand the critique of some regarding the details of the finished jacket and comparing it to others. They should know the fact that no tailoring house offers this level of service at this price point.
The first fitting (which some large houses skip) already gives it the right to be called bespoke.
Bespoke does not equal following style, but making the clothes according to: measurements, physical traits and, not least important, what the client desires, for instance the shape of the lapels (whether others like them or not is irrelevant).
Some who pay a lot more than the gentleman in question have no possibility to choose: the lapels, front, collar gorge. It is often due to the lack of the first fitting and then they receive the finished coat 2" too long in front, sleeves 1" too long or too short etc.
The physique of the gentleman allows him to go for RTW if he wanted to follow style. But he has his tastes and wants to look different, so he does well to go to a tailor.

[hectorm]

The first fitting (which some large houses skip) already gives it the right to be called bespoke.
Bespoke does not equal following style, but making the clothes according to: measurements, physical traits and, not least important, what the client desires

Dear Costi, I find the way you translated "su misura" into "bespoke" (in lieu of the literal made to measure) accurate, remarkable, and with lots of implications.
I´m sure Signor Mancuso is talking about the highest level of craftsmanship and service which no doubt should be the equivalent to bespoke. Had you translated as "made to measure" instead, it would have been unfair.
Notwithstanding, Ermenegildo Zegna and Loro Piana always translate "su misura" as "made to measure" most probably because MTM is what they do. On the other hand, none of the Caraceni even bother with any translation and I doubt they would adopt an English word to describe their antica tradizione sartoriale.

[Costi]

Hectorm, they say that in order to make a good translation one needs to understand the subject and know the language into which the translation is made. I know what language the LL speaks