It would be unfair of me or anyone for that matter to comment on Mr Grants intentions prior to acquiring Norton's for only he is knowledgeable of that. The reason for my response to the thread was to make a direct response to the subject in its opening sentence.
"Does anybody here have any (positive) experience with ordering from Norton & Sons"
I had a positive experience but it had nothing to do with Grant. I just find it quite unbelievable that an individual (Mr Grant) can cultivate such press where by he is adorned with so many accolades more notably the success of Norton's giving that his tailoring skills are nil and his personal qualities need polishing. The money he pays for his (Not Norton's) PR seems to be paying off. The reason for my repeated business was how the garment was cut and fitted and the quality of the workmanship that was involved whilst making the garment. Never did Mr Grant chalk, pin neither cut any aspect of my order, yet he is lorded in the press to be seemingly (pardon the pun) "The tailor Patrick Grant" The work was undertaken by skilled craftsmen namely
Ward and my tailor who if I remember correctly is called Steve. There are too many
individuals already on the Row who have similar tailoring qualifications as Grant, how this
lack of talent evolves into phantom genius makes a joke of the London street which we so dearly cherish.
Sorry i'm just not that photogenic.
Experience with Norton & Sons
Smudger,
I agree with your sentiments but, let's be honest, this is hardly new. I seem to remember that Richard James, for example, has a background not in tailoring or even fashion, but in photography. He has nevertheless built one of the best known bespoke houses on the Row. I can't comment on RJ's product but he does have a very long list of well known clients.
Sartorius
I agree with your sentiments but, let's be honest, this is hardly new. I seem to remember that Richard James, for example, has a background not in tailoring or even fashion, but in photography. He has nevertheless built one of the best known bespoke houses on the Row. I can't comment on RJ's product but he does have a very long list of well known clients.
Sartorius
sartorius wrote:Smudger,
I agree with your sentiments but, let's be honest, this is hardly new. I seem to remember that Richard James, for example, has a background not in tailoring or even fashion, but in photography. He has nevertheless built one of the best known bespoke houses on the Row. I can't comment on RJ's product but he does have a very long list of well known clients.
Sartorius
It's a valid point to make however it still doesn't make the process right. I don't think you could ever imply that Richard James has one of the best bespoke houses on Savile Row? I was an ex client of his and what was produced there to what I now believe to be a Savile Row suit are worlds apart, you really have to understand that. Yes he does have a long list of well known faces but that doesn't make "him" a great tailor? As for the well known
clients you only know this via his own advertisement of these individuals which I actually think is incredibly crass.
I think it absolutely fantastic that the big guns on the row still don't divulge who they actually make for and their secrecy actually adds to their allure. I was recently at my tailor on the Row and upon entering the shop there were three incredibly well known figures who were there independently of each other! The fact that these individuals are clients of the establishment is not due to wanting to be wearing a garment by the current Mr cool but because they value incredible craftsmanship and not faces.
There just seems to be an acute lack of awareness as to who the real artisans are. It's not Mr James or Mr Grant who the press seem to wrongly imply but the cutters and tailors who make the street what it is in substance and depth and who give it a future, as tailoring is no more that cutting and tailoring.sartorius wrote:Smudger,
I agree with your sentiments but, let's be honest, this is hardly new. I seem to remember that Richard James, for example, has a background not in tailoring or even fashion, but in photography. He has nevertheless built one of the best known bespoke houses on the Row. I can't comment on RJ's product but he does have a very long list of well known clients.
Sartorius
Long live the tailors and cutters as I will not have anything beautiful to wear if there are
none!
This thread has really developed into something interesting. Let me first make clear I love the art of bespoke tailoring and highly value the skills of the cutters and the sewing tailors. To me the interesting question is how to create longevity with these bespoke houses. Although Richard James is the exception rather than the rule, he has done a good job creating a house and promoting the Row. I think it's important for the artisans to partner with business minds that combine and align one another's strength. An example where that works today is Richard Anderson and Brian Lishak. I also think the best houses on the row has succesfully aligned artisan interests with organizational success. In the case of Norton its probably easier to be the armchair qb than being the MD. These are just some thoughts.
I agree with jlazarow. It is pretty rare for a single man to combine both exceptional cutting and great organizational abilities. There are some that do -- Frederick Scholte and Thomas Mahon come to mind, but they are rare.
For a medium- to big-sized atelier a good MD is a must. At one time I thought that Mr Grant is just such MD... but then, after reading this thread...
Andrey
For a medium- to big-sized atelier a good MD is a must. At one time I thought that Mr Grant is just such MD... but then, after reading this thread...
Andrey
I agree and you make a very valid point. I think Richard Anderson is one of the unsung heroes of the Row and together with the people around him I believe he has created an exceptional business. What sets these minds apart from others is that they are learned men in the art of bespoke know how. They learned their trade within the yards of Savile Row and there is knowledge behind them! I'm not sure if you have read his book yet?andreyb wrote:I agree with jlazarow. It is pretty rare for a single man to combine both exceptional cutting and great organizational abilities. There are some that do -- Frederick Scholte and Thomas Mahon come to mind, but they are rare.
For a medium- to big-sized atelier a good MD is a must. At one time I thought that Mr Grant is just such MD... but then, after reading this thread...
Andrey
What others fail to acquire is the necessary grounding in acquiring the vast understanding in the product and there are to many charlatans out there who make the loudest noises and people seem to really believe that there is depth to their words but if one would care to scratch the surface very quickly that person would find that the cupboard is incredibly bare!
mmmm? very old article.
Yes, an old article about some very old firms doing things in a rather old-fashioned way and, whatever their detractors say, still going!smudger wrote:
mmmm? very old article.
Scot Exactly, i think you have nailed it right there!Scot wrote:Yes, an old article about some very old firms doing things in a rather old-fashioned way and, whatever their detractors say, still going!smudger wrote:
mmmm? very old article.
I only found this thread after I'd already ordered a suit from Norton and Sons, despite having spent quite a lot of time researching in order to choose which tailor to go with.
I have to say though, that (so far at least) my experience has been really good. To date I've just had the initial consultation and the first fitting, and on both occasions I dealt directly with head cutter Stephen Allen. He has been very helpful and friendly, and is clearly very experienced and knowledgeable. I had some specific requirements in terms of materials etc, and from the very first phone call the staff at Norton and Sons had been entirely unfazed by this, and had reassured me that they'd had other customers with similar requirements. Just as you'd hope they would. This was one of my main reasons for choosing Norton's - surprisingly some other tailors I had spoken to had been a bit flummoxed by what I'd assumed would have been not-too-uncommon requirements.
They have a huge selection of really beautiful cloths to choose from, and Mr Allen was extremely helpful - and patient - in guiding me through this part of the process, arguably the most difficult part for the customer. The first fitting was ready ahead of schedule - they'd told me to expect it to take about four weeks, but they called me to tell me it was ready in under three. At the risk of counting unhatched chickens, even at this early stage I'm really pleased with how the suit is shaping up, the trousers are an excellent fit, and the jacket has a very good line to it.
Having read through all of this thread, it sounds like the main source of the problems has been to do with staff churn, particularly having changed head cutters several times, and as a result it sounds like 2010 had been a difficult year for Norton and Sons. I hope, however, that my positive experience to date suggests that they're now on an upward trend again, particularly since Mr Allen has joined the company. At the very least he gives me a sense of confidence that I haven't just made an expensive mistake!
I have to say though, that (so far at least) my experience has been really good. To date I've just had the initial consultation and the first fitting, and on both occasions I dealt directly with head cutter Stephen Allen. He has been very helpful and friendly, and is clearly very experienced and knowledgeable. I had some specific requirements in terms of materials etc, and from the very first phone call the staff at Norton and Sons had been entirely unfazed by this, and had reassured me that they'd had other customers with similar requirements. Just as you'd hope they would. This was one of my main reasons for choosing Norton's - surprisingly some other tailors I had spoken to had been a bit flummoxed by what I'd assumed would have been not-too-uncommon requirements.
They have a huge selection of really beautiful cloths to choose from, and Mr Allen was extremely helpful - and patient - in guiding me through this part of the process, arguably the most difficult part for the customer. The first fitting was ready ahead of schedule - they'd told me to expect it to take about four weeks, but they called me to tell me it was ready in under three. At the risk of counting unhatched chickens, even at this early stage I'm really pleased with how the suit is shaping up, the trousers are an excellent fit, and the jacket has a very good line to it.
Having read through all of this thread, it sounds like the main source of the problems has been to do with staff churn, particularly having changed head cutters several times, and as a result it sounds like 2010 had been a difficult year for Norton and Sons. I hope, however, that my positive experience to date suggests that they're now on an upward trend again, particularly since Mr Allen has joined the company. At the very least he gives me a sense of confidence that I haven't just made an expensive mistake!
In following this thread, what seems to come though time and again is the cutter/tailor(s) are very important (if not the most) in the bespoke tailoring experience.smudger wrote:
There just seems to be an acute lack of awareness as to who the real artisans are. It's not Mr James or Mr Grant who the press seem to wrongly imply but the cutters and tailors who make the street what it is in substance and depth and who give it a future, as tailoring is no more that cutting and tailoring.
Long live the tailors and cutters as I will not have anything beautiful to wear if there are
none!
However, the store owner/manage would/should be responsible for the over all quality (style and workmanship). The cutter cannot be responsible for everything and if the owner wants to save money and have, say the button holes stitched in a "sweatshop" etc. this becomes profit over quality.
The bespoke establishment is a business and profit is a constant issue. The good establishments seem to be a marriage between good trades people and good business sense.
Would following, on LL the movements of cutters from store to store give an indication of the cutter and business. Maybe a LL "Cutter Rating".
Last edited by Canuck on Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Yes, that would be extremely useful.Canuck wrote:Would following, on LL the movements of cutters from store to store give and indication of the cutter and business. Maybe a LL "Cutter Rating".
I'm not sure it is possible to cover all cutters, but it might be possible to cover all houses -- at least all on SR and a few off SR. Most of available descriptions, prepared by the owners themselves, trade on past glories -- Poole dressed Napoleon the 3rd and Churchill, Kilgour made iconic white tie for Fred Astaire, etc... so what? Interesting as historical facts and for SR aficionados, but hardly of any practical use for prospective customers -- and certainly not an inidication of what to expect from a company today.
Thus, a kind of "Savile Row A to Z", with a short description of house style, price range, cutter(s) bio and a summary of recent experiences for each house would be of great help.
An entry for Nortons might look like this:
Norton & Sons (16, Savile Row)
Head cutter is Stephen Allen, who started his carrer in 1984 at Wells of Mayfair. As reported by several members, there were many problems on service/delivery side in 2010 (before Mr Allen came on board); it seems the company is determined to resolve them. Results of these efforts remain to be seen (and reported).
Prices (in 2011) start from 2980 (inc VAT) for a two-piece suit.
Further information on recent experience with the company can be found at: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... f=4&t=9776
Andrey
P.S.: There are a few lists that are similar to, but not quite exactly what I propose:
1) "The London Lounge Certified Artisan Program". An excellent list (of "best of the best"), but a short one. Which is understandable -- since it is prepared by a single (though very knowledgable) man.
2) AAAC's "Savile Row Tailors" thread. Very close, but focuses on celebrating SR, not critiquing its ateliers. Also, it hasn't been updated for quite some time...
3) The list from "Savile Row" book by Richard Walker. Again, quite close, but a) the descriptions are way too brief and b) the book was published in 80s!
Canuck
Can you post an update on how your suit from Norton turned out and the whole experience?
Thanks
Can you post an update on how your suit from Norton turned out and the whole experience?
Thanks
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