John Lobb Paris Bespoke

[carl browne]

I have a pair of ten-year-old Paris bespoke Lobbs. I like them very much, but never ordered a second pair because of the expense and the fact that they didn't really inspire me. The latter may be my fault because I ordered a very basic pair of shoes--thought that would be prudent for a first commission.

Yesterday I visited a store called Leather Soul, which has been open in Beverly Hills for several months, and purports to represent Cleverly (which DOES inspire me, from what I've seen). The salesman looked at my Lobbs and informed me that they weren't really bespoke after all. Now this was news to me. I remember having one or two fittings and a try-on pair, which was dramatically cut to pieces in front of me. The shoes certainly APPEAR to be built around a bespoke last-- at least the shoe trees resemble my feet.

Am I missing something?

[Frog in Suit]

How can anyone, by just looking at a shoe, tell whether it is bespoke or not? Hand-sewn, well made, from good quality leather, …yes, but bespoke?
Frog in Suit

[storeynicholas]

Exactly: I've had the opposite experience of a shoemaker mistaking a pair of old RTW shoes for bespoke and his own firm's bespoke, at that!

[Mark Seitelman]

You probably have more knowledge of bespoke than the salesman.

[fontana1]

My experience is that a trained eye can tell right away if a pair of shoes is truly bespoke. My own shoemaker puts together ('makes') shoes for Lobb. He receives from Lobb the clicked and sewn leather with the last, and he stitches the leather by hand around the last to a sole, and sends it all back to Lobb for fitting and, if necessary, adjustments.

[Costi]

If he can tell your blood type, too, just by looking at you, he's the real deal!
If he is very familiar with JLP, there may be telltale signs that he can recognize, but then he should be able to share them with you. He may recognize a familiar JLP RTW last, or be able to tell the fit doesn't look bespoke, but it probably takes a shoemaker to be capabable of such fine detective work.

[storeynicholas]

You probably have more knowledge of bespoke than the salesman.

In my case it was the lastmaker; mind you, the biggest giveaway is the heels imho and he couldn't really see them as he was looking down over the shoes; also, in those days, the leather used in good RTW shoes was much better than it generally is now.

[carl browne]

Perhaps I should have described the conversation a little better: the salesman informed me that IN GENERAL, bespoke Paris Lobbs aren't really bespoke, that I've fallen victim to a certain amount of flim-flam.

I am accustomed to hearing an artisan subtly denigrate the competition: "Quite nice, sir, really, but we ought to be able to do a little better than THAT." But this was not an approach I've seen.

So gentlemen, I put the question to you: Is there any truth whatsoever to the assertion that the Paris bespoke Lobbs aren't really bespoke after all?

Someday I may want another pair of the Lobbs (assuming they're the real thing) and if I ever want a pair of Cleverlys, I may have to go through this shop to get them, as they claim to be Cleverly's exclusive US agent. I'd really like to know if the shop "Leather Soul" is an outfit I can trust. If not, I'll pass on the Cleverlys no matter how badly I want them.

Thanks,

C

[old henry]

Carl , Lobb Paris no longer hand carve a wooden last but make a plastic last using computers. Hmm. Its your call.

[JCH]

I have no personal experience with Leather Soul, but I think its home store is in Hawaii. I recall Will at ASW has written about the Hawaiian store, so there might be some information there.

[Mark Seitelman]

Perhaps I should have described the conversation a little better: the salesman informed me that IN GENERAL, bespoke Paris Lobbs aren't really bespoke, that I've fallen victim to a certain amount of flim-flam. * * *

I have no dog in this fight, but if John Lobb Paris were passing-off "stock specials" as "real bespoke", word would leak-out to the customers. A salesman or manager or some other "insider" would let the information slip.

A good number of the customers would go elsewhere for the privilege of spending $5,000 for a pair of shoes. There is a limited pool of "bespoke" makers, but there are still choices.

I was recently in the New York store, and they have a showcase of bespoke shoes. Although I had no way of knowing if they were made from a unique last, they looked as if they were. They did not look like the RTW shoes in the store. They were slimmer and more tapered at the arch. The leather, finish, and workmanship were exquisite. In comparison, the RTW shoes looked ordinary.

[jb]

Carl,

I have extremely high regard for Tom Park and Leather Soul, but not for that salesman's reply. They represent JLP ready to wear, and the only proper statement in that situation would be to say that they would be delighted to assist you with purchasing a bespoke pair of Cleverleys, not to subtly denigrate your shoes. In spite of that, Tom and his staff have done a great deal (along with Leffot in New York) to carry the banner for fine men's shoes in the US and to promote an alternative to the poor value fashion brands.

That said, I applaud your leaning toward Cleverley for a future commission. Last spring, I went into their small Royal Arcade shop in the quiet portion of a weekday and heard, "That's a marvelous suit you're wearing sir." As it happened, I had on a double breasted suit of Scabal's Silver Gander that Chris Despos had made for me. I turned and was looking at a gentleman with a great mustache who turned out to be Domenic Casey, designer for Cleverley who comes to Chicago regularly to measure and do fittings. We had a great conversation about shoes. He was most engaging, even though I didn't have a commission in mind at the time. Everything I saw and learned about Cleverley certainly puts them high on my list. Of course, I also like the guys from G&G a lot...

Joel

[carl browne]

Carl , Lobb Paris no longer hand carve a wooden last but make a plastic last using computers. Hmm. Its your call.

AHA!

Thank you, Frank, that's just what I needed to know. As I said, it's completely acceptable for a craftsman to run down the competition a bit. In fact, I think it's good--shows he has lots of pride in his work. But I do insist that the assertion must be at least arguably true. It's really important for me to be able to trust the people I deal with, and ideally have them become friends.

Now I'd like to know about the plastic-computer generated-last. Are they better or not as good?

C

[tteplitzmd]

Well, I've been to Leather Soul, in Beverly Hills. In fact I'll be in Beverly Hills next week. Leather Soul is a retailer, same as Leffot. They sell "upstairs" the newer RTW Cleverly line, and I believe the son is based in L.A., in finance, and is somehow involved in the new Leather Soul location. I have no horse or dog in this race either. That said, they are retailers, and can do some special orders. Not bespoke to the best of my knowledge. Unceremoniously, Leather Soul gave the boot to the upstanding Gaziano Girling upon the opening of the Beverly Hills branch of Leather Soul. Presumably so that G&G would not have the opportunity to compete side by side with the advent of this new Cleverly line.

For someone like myself who is impossible to fit (5E on G&G's stock lasts) without at least a try on of the company's stock sizes, I have no use for these retailers. If I could try on their stock sizes I would still prefer special order (MTO in G&G parlance), or wait for the predictable sale cycles.

I too received a "hard sell" from Leather Soul, generally involving denigrating the competition, yet offering nothing in my size to try on. Another "try it you'll like it." Then when the shoes arrive and don't fit, it's "break them in, they'll stretch...: I fully agree with Counselor Seitelman, you almost certainly know more about shoes than the retail sales force. My admonishment remains: Never buy luxury goods from someone who knows less about them than you.

If the guy was so talented to know your blood type, etc., as Costi suggests, he wouldn't be working in the shop.

Finally, I too had a pleasant conversation with the personable Mr. Casey. I am on their mailing list for bespoke visits to Washington, D.C. So far, he is losing the challenge: "We'll get you sooner or later." (I'm told he uses that line routinely).

[ay329]

LS sells John Lobb Paris RTW. So their BH salesman will have knowledge about that and that only. I would not invest any more time in his comments to you...unless he personally owns a pair of JL Paris bespoke or has personally come across many of them

Carl...a pair of Cleverley lazyman imitation laced shoes (bespoke or A.C. semi-bespoke) are in your future...stop fighting it