A ludicrous suggestion
Merc, what can I say, life can be so sad... With such a "bulk" of "regular guys" that "can't be bothered" it is a miracle that places like the LL exist.
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storeynicholas
I agree with Costi (no surprise there). There'll only ever be a surprise there if we were to agree about smoking 
and that's not very likely...
Merc, your point that most 'regular guys' appear to want to dress - sorry, can't be bothered to dress better than say - vagrants - does not convince me that this is a pattern to follow. Otherwise, I don't really understand your point. There are certainly some who see the tie as a symbol of the conventional and discard it for that reason. Routinely and summarily (often heedlessly) discarding reasoning, arguments and ideas as 'out of date' is far more dangerous and destructive of human society than all the evanescent fashion that the fashionistas thrust at us.
NJS
and that's not very likely...Merc, your point that most 'regular guys' appear to want to dress - sorry, can't be bothered to dress better than say - vagrants - does not convince me that this is a pattern to follow. Otherwise, I don't really understand your point. There are certainly some who see the tie as a symbol of the conventional and discard it for that reason. Routinely and summarily (often heedlessly) discarding reasoning, arguments and ideas as 'out of date' is far more dangerous and destructive of human society than all the evanescent fashion that the fashionistas thrust at us.
NJS
Funny..but i just consider myself lucky that i have been able to spend the time to understand more about this stuff and the existence of the LL, although due to huge efforts by Mr Alden and a few other people (plus everyone else who joined and posts), is actually no surprise --as it is natural, in an era where such things are diminishing in either commerce or the background culture, it is natural for groups of individuals who have an appreciation or a knowledge (or even just a curiousity) to try to preserve and continue to foster a knowledge base (or a craft or the like) and also to want to have or nurture a community of suchCosti wrote:Merc, what can I say, life can be so sad... With such a "bulk" of "regular guys" that "can't be bothered" it is a miracle that places like the LL exist.
And BTW- nor am i denigrating the 'guys' i have worked with over the years. their priorities are different and to be fair to them, their roles have always been more technical than mine--meaning they generally just sit in the office, make a few phone calls, write a few things, and crunch numbers on a computer. For at least a decade -i'm out in the field more and meeting with people etc.
(and as an aside i prefer to live in the manner as Alden apparently believes in living)
I'll tell one more story: when i was 21, and just graduated from college, (20 or so years ago) i owned only one suit-- a cheap suit. (it was an ugly shade of olive, it may have even been polyester-- and as i am a difficult fit generally, i'm sure it never really fit even close to correctly) and i was doing the job interview circuit. one afternoon i was wandering down 5th Avenue after (or before---i don't remember) an interview and wandered into a few of the high-end clothing stores to kill time -- i recall thinking to myself that i felt more out of place in my cheap suit than i would have in jeans.
From that time, (not just or even mainly because of that event but also because i saw how bad some dress pants and suits looked on me even after alteration) i generally avoided 'tailored clothing' as much as possible until i had enough money and knowledge (and it took time to accumulate both) to buy better fitting and better looking pants and jackets and eventually went to MTM then much more recently 'full custom' (i.e. bespoke) as we used to say in NY. (although my first step was shirts, not suits)
and i add one more (trite) thing
different strokes for different folks and what is appropriate varies
This applies mayeb not to most people here but one last anecdote:
I go on construction sites maybe once a week. i never wear suits on those sites. I wear jeans (or sometimes heavy proper trousers), a dress shirt (often no tie), and a sports/odd jacket, along with thick soled country boots (i mean english veldtschoen country boots not american cowboy boots!) i look neat and presentable but i don't look like an idiot walking around in the mud and cement with dress shoes or possibly getting nails in my feet. But you'd be surprised how many times i meet people taking tours of sites that wear Ferragamo shoes and suits on sites. They are not only dressed stupidly for that environment (and potentially dangerously with regards to footware) but they often elicit comments to this effect from the construction managers.
It makes no sense.
Rules are fluid and everything needs to be adapted to the situation.
different strokes for different folks and what is appropriate varies
This applies mayeb not to most people here but one last anecdote:
I go on construction sites maybe once a week. i never wear suits on those sites. I wear jeans (or sometimes heavy proper trousers), a dress shirt (often no tie), and a sports/odd jacket, along with thick soled country boots (i mean english veldtschoen country boots not american cowboy boots!) i look neat and presentable but i don't look like an idiot walking around in the mud and cement with dress shoes or possibly getting nails in my feet. But you'd be surprised how many times i meet people taking tours of sites that wear Ferragamo shoes and suits on sites. They are not only dressed stupidly for that environment (and potentially dangerously with regards to footware) but they often elicit comments to this effect from the construction managers.
It makes no sense.
Rules are fluid and everything needs to be adapted to the situation.
Merc, nice posts. If the LL changed your perspective, why don't you trust the "bulk of regular guys" to be able to change as well and open their eyes to a reality that has always been there right next to them all along, only they were blind to it? I think everyone can do it and it doesn't take a university degree in fashion design or even a Sunday course, but a moment of realization, when it all "dawns on you" - like it happenned to you when you entered that clothing shop. From there on it's up to each man to be honest with himself and admit there is room for improvement, take things further, or lie to himself that it's such a hassle, a useless expenditure and miserably uncomfortable to dress better (mostly for fear he might not succeed in obtaining immediate recognition).
Dressing adequately for the occasion IS a rule, not an exception - a rule of common sense, of good taste, of good manners and, finally, of dress. "Dress" is not at all restricted to worsted suits, silk ties and black Oxfords - jeans, casual shirt, field boots and tweed jacket is "dress" as well. The question is not "what", but "how" and in this respect I very much agree with you that khakis and T-shirts are preferable to an ugly and badly worn suit.
As for ties - I guess that's why Michael called it a "ludicrous" suggestion, because the character's reaction would be "Ha! Me? A tie?! Why would I?". But are there any arguments against Michael's sensible ones why the gent in that picture would look better wearing a tie with his shirt and jacket? That the man is too lazy, too indolent, too cheap, too blind, too revolutionary to wear a tie is not an argument, but an excuse. Because he WOULD look better with a tie, it would NOT be uncomfortable if he did things right, it would be NO hassle to buy a few ties when he shops for other clothing items and it would NOT cost him a fortune. So? Why NOT?
Dressing adequately for the occasion IS a rule, not an exception - a rule of common sense, of good taste, of good manners and, finally, of dress. "Dress" is not at all restricted to worsted suits, silk ties and black Oxfords - jeans, casual shirt, field boots and tweed jacket is "dress" as well. The question is not "what", but "how" and in this respect I very much agree with you that khakis and T-shirts are preferable to an ugly and badly worn suit.
As for ties - I guess that's why Michael called it a "ludicrous" suggestion, because the character's reaction would be "Ha! Me? A tie?! Why would I?". But are there any arguments against Michael's sensible ones why the gent in that picture would look better wearing a tie with his shirt and jacket? That the man is too lazy, too indolent, too cheap, too blind, too revolutionary to wear a tie is not an argument, but an excuse. Because he WOULD look better with a tie, it would NOT be uncomfortable if he did things right, it would be NO hassle to buy a few ties when he shops for other clothing items and it would NOT cost him a fortune. So? Why NOT?
Thanks Costi
i agree that person in the photo would absolutely look better with a tie
and i also agree that "the character's reaction [might] be 'Ha! Me? A tie?! Why would I' "
and i didn't say i don't trust the "bulk of regular guys" to be able to change as well and better their attire. i merely observed that many of the men i've known in the professional world don't care. No, they wouldn't come to work with a big grease stain on their shirts or unshaven (unless they had a beard), but they didnt care to move it up one or 2 notches . And now that things have been shifted for a long time, a somewhat different aesthetic (if youll call it that) is considered the baseline normal.
You would stand out as a fancy dresser or 'very well dressed' or natty among those who know that word. When i wear business attire, i'm referred to as the best dressed man in my office, but no one would put me in that top league (nor do i care)-- because, as i said, i frequent construction sites, so i often pass through my office in more rugged attire. (So i keep them guessing how ill look)
On a related note, my own personal perspective has evolved for a long time and continues to evolve over the years -- as has my eye. I now see the imperfections of jackets that 4 or 5 years ago i thought fit well. i never had a 'bad' eye (for pattern, fit, etc), but merely an untrained one. (And i have gained a fair amount of additional knowledge here and from conversations with tailors. )
i agree that person in the photo would absolutely look better with a tie
and i also agree that "the character's reaction [might] be 'Ha! Me? A tie?! Why would I' "
and i didn't say i don't trust the "bulk of regular guys" to be able to change as well and better their attire. i merely observed that many of the men i've known in the professional world don't care. No, they wouldn't come to work with a big grease stain on their shirts or unshaven (unless they had a beard), but they didnt care to move it up one or 2 notches . And now that things have been shifted for a long time, a somewhat different aesthetic (if youll call it that) is considered the baseline normal.
You would stand out as a fancy dresser or 'very well dressed' or natty among those who know that word. When i wear business attire, i'm referred to as the best dressed man in my office, but no one would put me in that top league (nor do i care)-- because, as i said, i frequent construction sites, so i often pass through my office in more rugged attire. (So i keep them guessing how ill look)
On a related note, my own personal perspective has evolved for a long time and continues to evolve over the years -- as has my eye. I now see the imperfections of jackets that 4 or 5 years ago i thought fit well. i never had a 'bad' eye (for pattern, fit, etc), but merely an untrained one. (And i have gained a fair amount of additional knowledge here and from conversations with tailors. )
I have a friend who tried everything - under the appearance of a game - to accomplish something for which she envies many around her: quit smoking (hello, Nicholas! Wait, you'll see it's about something elseMerc wrote:and i didn't say i don't trust the "bulk of regular guys" to be able to change as well and better their attire. i merely observed that many of the men i've known in the professional world don't care.
) Each time she tries some new strategy to reduce the number of cigarettes a day etc. she is afraid to say to herself or others "I quit!" for fear she might not be able to do it. As she won't admit failure, either, she keeps saying "I don't want to quit smoking, I am just playing with how much I smoke". Of course, this is not about smoking, but about the fox in Aesop's fable: as he doesn't think he can reach the grapes, he says they are sour and doesn't want them anyway. Of course, there are some men who, for one reason or another, really "can't be bothered", but I believe the "bulk of regular guys" as you called them would very much like to look better, feel better about themselves, see others' recognition etc. if only they believed they could do it. So, rather than resign to "they can't be bothered", let's see if they CAN be bothered with arguments, examples, explanations, suggestions and inspiration.
-ooo000OOONow THAT is historical!
If only we had the strength not to start all over again...
If only we had the strength not to start all over again...
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Simon A
Ties aren't expensive. For the temporarily impoverished (students, new graduates, school leavers and so on), second hand stores sell clean used silk ties in good order for 1-2 Euros each. One only needs half a dozen to start off with, so that's less than the price of a few pints. I recently picked up 40-odd pre-loved European made silk ties, of excellent quality and in very good condition, for 50 Euros in Georgia; enough to last a lifetime if I weren't fussy (or a bespoke nut ).
).Merc,
The most succinct way to explain things is to say that there are “ordinary” and “extraordinary” men. It has nothing to do with wealth, fame, success, looks, race, birth, class (small “c”), education etc. It has everything to do with being extraordinary or not.
Extraordinary men are extraordinary in everything they do. The lives of ordinary men are likewise and in every way common. For example, your “regular” friends, who would rather spend their disposable income chasing girls, probably take home a lot of cold pizzas and an occasional ordinary girl. The extraordinary fellow knows that it is counter-productive to chase extraordinary girls and knows how to make himself the object of the hunt (or give the impression of same.)
Before that extraordinary lady can be intrigued by you; curious about you; inflamed by you; desirous of you and finally, covetous of you, she has to be able to see you. So if you dress exactly like all the ordinaries, she will pass you by in a sweeping gaze that never fixes, that passes over the horizon of the ordinary, a never ending, flat Nebraska field. Dress is an extraordinary device. If you have the courage and Style to stand out from the crowd, she will notice it. Then, if you have a twinkle in your eye and the wit to make her laugh, you will pass as many deliriously extraordinary moments with her as you are able to imagine and desire.
This is one example and there are thousands more.
We all have the choice in life to be extraordinary or accept the fate of the ordinary.
Choose.
Cheers
Michael Alden
The most succinct way to explain things is to say that there are “ordinary” and “extraordinary” men. It has nothing to do with wealth, fame, success, looks, race, birth, class (small “c”), education etc. It has everything to do with being extraordinary or not.
Extraordinary men are extraordinary in everything they do. The lives of ordinary men are likewise and in every way common. For example, your “regular” friends, who would rather spend their disposable income chasing girls, probably take home a lot of cold pizzas and an occasional ordinary girl. The extraordinary fellow knows that it is counter-productive to chase extraordinary girls and knows how to make himself the object of the hunt (or give the impression of same.)
Before that extraordinary lady can be intrigued by you; curious about you; inflamed by you; desirous of you and finally, covetous of you, she has to be able to see you. So if you dress exactly like all the ordinaries, she will pass you by in a sweeping gaze that never fixes, that passes over the horizon of the ordinary, a never ending, flat Nebraska field. Dress is an extraordinary device. If you have the courage and Style to stand out from the crowd, she will notice it. Then, if you have a twinkle in your eye and the wit to make her laugh, you will pass as many deliriously extraordinary moments with her as you are able to imagine and desire.
This is one example and there are thousands more.
We all have the choice in life to be extraordinary or accept the fate of the ordinary.
Choose.
Cheers
Michael Alden
all well said ...and it intersects with the core of what i was speaking about.alden wrote:Merc,
The most succinct way to explain things is to say that there are “ordinary” and “extraordinary” men. It has nothing to do with wealth, fame, success, looks, race, birth, class (small “c”), education etc. It has everything to do with being extraordinary or not.
We all have the choice in life to be extraordinary or accept the fate of the ordinary.
This is also known as cognitive dissonance (the fox in Aesop’s fable is a classic example). You will encounter this in many areas of life, a very actual example being the hate against everything made by Apple. Standing out always comes with a price and many people choose to be ordinary just so they don’t have to stand up for themselves every day.Costi wrote:Of course, this is not about smoking, but about the fox in Aesop's fable: as he doesn't think he can reach the grapes, he says they are sour and doesn't want them anyway. Of course, there are some men who, for one reason or another, really "can't be bothered", but I believe the "bulk of regular guys" as you called them would very much like to look better, feel better about themselves, see others' recognition etc. if only they believed they could do it. So, rather than resign to "they can't be bothered", let's see if they CAN be bothered with arguments, examples, explanations, suggestions and inspiration.
A well-tied tie is the first serious step in life. - Oscar Wilde
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