Poole or Kilgour bespoke thoughts/advice-US tour

[Yale Cameron]

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on Henry Poole and Kilgour bespoke? I would like to commision an order with one of the savile row firms when they visit the US this fall. So, I was hoping to hear from people about their thoughts on these two houses (or any other firms youd recommend with the caveat that they have to be coming to the west coast) particularly with regard to doing it on their US tours without getting to London. I live in Phoenix, so I am looking to meet them when they visit either SF or LA. I have had bespoke suits made by Leonard Logsdail and WW Chan in the past.

[Manself]

I'm afraid I can't answer this question, but it does prompt me to wonder if any Loungers are Kilgour regulars? If so, have they're been perceptible changes since the curtain fell on the Carlo Brandelli era, and some of the young cutters left to take over at Doug Hayward?

[alden]

Welcome Yale

With the weather you have in Arizona, I would want unlined suits made as naturally as possible. Both the houses you have mentioned are pretty heavy builds. A good S. Italian tailor would be a great way to go. What do our LA members advise?

Cheers

Michael

[Yale Cameron]

Alden,

1. when it gets really hot, the suit coat stays on the hangar in the office and does not really get worn outside so its actually less of a concern than you might imagine.

2. I am a lawyer so I have some concern whether the unlined neapolitan look is "serious" enough for business wear. I also would be concerned at the longevity of those types of garments. Also, I really love my Logsdail suit, I like that british look.

3. I have really liked some of the attolini that i have seen pictures of, but my understanding was that the southern italian tailors do not travel to the U.S. Is this assumption incorrect? I gravitated towards the savile row tailors because I knew they travelled (and of course Leonard is in NYC). If i could go to naples for a month, I would probably get something made by one of the tailors there, but the logistics seem too difficult.

[couch]

I'm a Poole customer, and in my experience the cutters/coatmakers are pretty flexible as to how heavy and/or firm the build is if you are explicit about your preferences. I have not had a half-lined or unlined jacket from them but I have seen some on the racks of fittings during NY visits. They make for many customers in east and south Asia, Latin America, and the Middle East and are used to working in lighter and high-twist cloths, and adjusting the canvas and other "guts" to suit the cloth. That said, their default make for temperate climes is certainly a bit less soft than A&S, Steed, or the few Neapolitan jackets I've seen in person.

With the larger SR firms, the challenging aspect is accurate communication all along the chain. There is always the possibility for errors to creep in between cutter, striker, coatmaker, trousermaker, vestmaker, and finisher, and they are not always caught prior to fitting or delivery, despite diligent efforts. It's helpful if you have occasion to travel to London at least once a year--this gives an additional iteration to shorten the fitting/delivery time, and may allow you to catch and correct some details in a matter of days, in addition to allowing you to meet some of the other personnel, should you wish. Unless you're very lucky, you should plan on a year or two (of thrice-yearly visits) before the pattern is really dialed in. So you might wish to commission fewer pieces during that shakedown period.

If you do not travel to London regularly, there might be some advantage in working with a good smaller firm where fewer hands touch the garment (as with Len Logsdail). Edwin DeBoise of Steed travels to Chicago, which is closer to you than NY, though not so close as the west coast; his make is notably soft and unimpeachable in quality. You might also consider Chris Despos, who sees clients not only in Chicago but also in Dallas, which might be more accessible for you. I believe Chris is also able to be quite flexible as to make. Thomas Mahon, another A&S alum (softer construction), travels to San Francisco, though I'm not sure whether he's taking on new customers--it might be worth checking.

I don't mean to discourage you from using the larger SR traveling firms, so long as you're prepared for the journey. I've been treated very well by Poole, and there are advantages to size: an acquaintance had a large order of several finished suits in transit to the U.S. when Heathrow was shut down a couple of years ago by the transatlantic multiple-aircraft bomb scare. During the shutdown, the suits disappeared and were never heard from again. Poole remade them all at no cost to the customer--something a small firm with more limited resources might be hard pressed to do.

Good luck and let us know how things work out for you.

[alden]

2. I am a lawyer so I have some concern whether the unlined neapolitan look is "serious" enough for business wear. I also would be concerned at the longevity of those types of garments.

Only you and your tailor will know for sure... that it is unlined. It doesn't have to be Neapolitan and Len can make you an unlined coat as well. A "buggy lined" coat will last just as long as a lined one. It depends more on the quality and type of cloth used.

Two of the more famous defense attorneys in the States are members here. I remember one of them telling me he particularly liked Neapolitan suits because it made him look "simpatico" to juries as opposed to the very serious dress of his rivals, the prosecutors.

But there are other aspects of lawyering that probably require more austere and professional attire.

There is a tailor in LA who is often written about on the forums. I think a few of our members use his services. Let's see if any comments surface.

Cheers

Michael

[Will]

They have yet to finish my first jacket but so far Poole is the best tailor to deal with that I have experienced. Thomas Mahon is second, only because he doesn't like making anything outside of his norms. No 4x2 DBs, that's for certain, and getting a quarter lined jacket was a small challenge initially.

This is completely separate from whether one likes a particular tailor's silhouette of course. The only southern Italian who travels to the best of my knowledge is the very irregular younger Solito. If you like soft tailoring, Mahon will make a trip to San Francisco worthwhile. If he is taking new customers, that is.

[Yale Cameron]

Alden, what is a buggy lined coat, is that basically a half lined coat where the front is lined but much of the back is unlined? I would not want to use Steed or Mahon. I don't really the like A and S type english stuff. I am not a fan of "drape". I really prefer a cleaner look. So, if I were to ever do anything soft, I would want to do something of the italian ilk, which I realize is more difficult in terms of logistics. Simon Cundey of Poole is calling me tomorrow, so that should be a good opportunity to get a feel for Poole. I am also going to have Len Logsdail make me a few more pieces this fall, I may talk to him about possibly doing something that is not fully lined.

[ay329]

Enzo Caruso is a Southern Italian bespoke trained tailor (about 60 years old), from Calabria. He is familiar with the Sicilian/Naples designs.
I have seen him make unlined jackets for others. He is in Santa Monica, California

LL Member AY has used his services: http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.ph ... nzo+Caruso

LL Member Erasmus/Sleevehead http://sleevehead.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... santa.html
If you search deeper into Sleevehead's blog, you will find more posts on his further experiences with Enzo.

His prices are below Logsdail's and Poole's. Expect at least $2400 for a 2 piece suit (possibly a bit more). He has access to all the named cloth houses

Poole only comes to Los Angeles twice a year. If the OP has no plans to visit London to squeeze in more fittings, the finished garment might take 1.5 to 2 years to complete (considering the obscene money expenditure and the need to get a good fit with as many fittings as is necessary)

[alden]

Alden, what is a buggy lined coat, is that basically a half lined coat where the front is lined but much of the back is unlined?

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[mafoofan]

Yale, I understand your concern for looking appropriate as a lawyer. However, the "Neapolitan" look doesn't necessarily call for an unlined jacket--in fact, I don't think whether a jacket is lined or not has anything to do with whether it can be called Neapolitan. It also doesn't mean that jackets are unstructured. My jackets, for example, have all the same anatomical parts as any other full-canvass suit--the differences are the lightness and softness of the innards.

Personally, I'm very skeptical of concerns that suits from Naples will necessarily look out of place in a professional environment--the look is maybe 2% different from the most lean military-style Savile Row suits. The differences are so nuanced as to be imperceptible to most and inconsequential to just about everyone. We're talking about slightly different shades, not different colors.

Ferrari's Montezemolo:

[Yale Cameron]

Mafoofan, what you say makes sense. My other concern with the "neapolitan" style is frankly how that would translate ont osomeone of my size. I am a really big guy (6'6" 260, played football). I have always thought that the shorter jacket, tighter trousers of the neapolitan look would not look great on my frame and that it really looks much better on shorter men. this may be totally off base, so certainly wondering if this is accurate in other people's point of view.

[mafoofan]

^^^ I tend to think that fit is more important than the cut or style of a suit when determining whether it looks right on any given physique.

So, sure, if one must extrapolate, it may be imagined that the various themes in Neapolitan tailoring have developed over time to address shorter, slighter frames. Thus, hems are often shortened, shoulders are often extended, and drape is often injected. But a good tailor should realize how to moderate those approaches. In my case, for example, I am short, but I have a relatively broad chest and shoulders. Thus, Rubinacci made my jackets with little to no shoulder extension.

Also, while I know that shorter jackets and tighter trousers are often associated with Neapolitan tailoring, as with English tailors, there is variation--especially in the case of narrow trouser legs, which are more of a trend than a historical precedent. My Rubinacci trousers might be every so slightly on the slim side, but not distractingly so, and nobody would ever call them tight. My Ambrosi trousers, on the other hand, are very dramatically tapered.

At the end, I think it matters much more which tailoring tradition and style appeals to you for personal, psychological, and romantic reasons. I bet a great English tailor could make me look just as good in a military-style jacket as I look in Rubinacci. The difference is just that the latter speaks to me more on an emotional level.

[alden]

Yale and Foo,

I think fit and style go hand in hand and emotion comes from the radiant confidence that results from their happy marriage.

There really is a style that suits one man better than another and the trick is finding it, in developing one’s own style.

Yale, your stature puts you at one of the extremes that bespoke serves well because it gives you the ability first to attenuate the extreme and then to use it as an advantage.

Take a look at pictures of Gary Cooper who was six foot four and see if there is a big statement about his height in them. Then take a look at Windsor or Toto, its hard to guess they measured barely over five foot. These men found a style and fit that made them look neither lanky nor squat. They look great.

I think you are on the right road with Anglo-American tailoring.

I am nearly six three and am an ardent admirer of Italian tailoring. Over the last few decades I have had the good fortune to work with about a dozen of the finest tailors in Italy.

These gifted craftsmen, having very few chances to work with giants, simple do better with average sized men. The tight, low cut trousers, and equally tight, narrow shouldered jackets (they cannot help themselves to make despite loads of urging and instruction) look great on a man of average build, but they do not, in my opinion, work well for the tall unless your ideal image is the string bean.

Only recently I convinced a few Sicilian tailors, who initially resisted kicking and shouting all the way, to make clothes to suit the taller man. But I have to keep them on a very short leash…

Cheers

Michael

[Merc]

^^^ I tend to think that fit is more important than the cut or style of a suit when determining whether it looks right on any given physique.

So, sure, if one must extrapolate, it may be imagined that the various themes in Neapolitan tailoring have developed over time to address shorter, slighter frames. Thus, hems are often shortened, shoulders are often extended, and drape is often injected. But a good tailor should realize how to moderate those approaches. In my case, for example, I am short, but I have a relatively broad chest and shoulders. Thus, Rubinacci made my jackets with little to no shoulder extension.
.

i disagree about the shorter, slighter frames part
shorter, yes, slighter no.
and certain characteristics of that style are helpful to shorter men. conversely, a lot of cuts in those old esquire drawings however, would like lousy on anyone under 5'9"