Weight, weave, warmness

[J.S. Groot]

I know it seems like I'm flooding this forum with my questions these days, but when you're new in this business, there's simply so much to take in.

This time my wondering was once again evoked by one of Etutee's excellent AA/Esky articles. It's about the relationship between cloth weight, weave and warmness. In the article Etutee points out that cloth weight and warmness are not proportional, but that the warmness of the cloth has more to do with material and weave. This is especially interesting now with summer fast approaching, so I'd very much like some elaboration on this point.

I imagine that wool is usually warmer than cotton and linen, I also imagine that tight weaves are warmer than loose ones (both of these points may be entirely incorrect) and as such would it be possible to have a wool cloth that is cooler than, say, a linen cloth because of the weave? And how does the weight factor in?

Any help is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Sylvester

[Merc]

im still undecided about this
a lot of the consensus here is very open weave but heavier (10-12-13 oz) cloth wil lgive you the best compromise between wearabilyt-breathability-and drape

But plenty of experts insist true tropical weight stuff is cooler than 12 oz fresco

I still am not sure. i run warm generally even though i'm trim. 65 F/sunny in NY and i'm always taking my jacket off-70F im ready to roll up the sleeves. i think i prefer tropical wool (7-8 oz) in a very light color but have only limited experience with frescos et al.

i believe color is important as is the structure (the less lining the better).

i still lean towards tropical despite the fact it falls apart too soon.

(AND if its over 90F with high humidity, ive been known to walk to my office in shorts and a dress shirt, as long as im not meeting anyone)

[Costi]

(AND if its over 90F with high humidity, ive been known to walk to my office in shorts and a dress shirt, as long as im not meeting anyone)

What if you run into someone you're not supposed to meet on the street? A close encounter of the first and last kind

Sylvester, there are two things: how cool a cloth wears (and that depends mostly on the porousness of the weave) and how cool it feels to the touch. In the latter respect, linen is the coolest of all, irrespective of the weave. But tightly woven wool gabardine (often mentioned as a summer cloth in older magazines) is also cool to the touch, though it doesn't breathe much. While a piece of flannel, no matter how lightweight, will feel warm to the touch even in freezing cold.
Some qualities of cotton (fine shirtings) may be cool to the touch, but cotton doesn't wear too cool. Its virtue is that it wicks moisture away from the body and evaporates it, providing a "cool" feeling, which is an extension of the natural mechanism of cooling down the body temperature through perspiration.

[Merc]

(AND if its over 90F with high humidity, ive been known to walk to my office in shorts and a dress shirt, as long as im not meeting anyone)

What if you run into someone you're not supposed to meet on the street? A close encounter of the first and last kind

pretty funny-- it hasn't happened yet. but we're talking only 1 or 2 times a year i resort to that.

[Costi]

"resort" is the keyword
I am not the kind who sweats in a three piece suit in the August heat for the sake of being "well-dressed", but I wear a lot of linen in summer. Not really "City wear", but better than shorts and just as cool.

[Merc]

"resort" is the keyword
I am not the kind who sweats in a three piece suit in the August heat for the sake of being "well-dressed", but I wear a lot of linen in summer. Not really "City wear", but better than shorts and just as cool.

i wore linen a couple of times 20 years ago but always hated it--but i think it was partly a function of baggy off-the rack pants.
i'm reconsidering it for pants for this summer-but full custom, not OTR

i go mainly with tropical weight wool. ALthough i have some tropical wool/silk blends-- walk thirty blocks in them and they start to show wear & tear from one walk!

[Costi]

Then may I recommend baggy full custom linen trousers Mine are full cut and double pleated, roomy enough that they have their own atmosphere and weather inside. Always unlined. I am dressed, but feel naked.

[J.S. Groot]

What kind of linen do you use? I'm considering trying out http://www.tweed-jacket.com/index.html's made-to-order service for a pair of trousers or three and I was considering a sandstone Irish linen (approx 12oz) for one of them. Do you think it will be heavy enough to get a good hang?

By the way, have you heard anything about Brookster's garments? I read some rather positive feedback over at The Cutter and Tailor forum, and since their fabric selection is both extensive and of high quality, I thought it would be interesting to try them out as a pre-step before I lift entirely into bespoke.

[Costi]

I like hands-on experiences with fabrics: I buy from bolts (not photographs or samples), so I am not fixed on numbers and names. If I like it, I buy it. Some Italian linen is pretty good, too, but not better than Irish. Weight is not all - you need to feel it in your hand and drape a meter or so over your arm to see how it hangs, whether it is stiff or fluid, look against the light to get an idea of how breathable it is. Do try some linen trousers and don't have them cut too narrow, so you can take full advantage of the linen's comfort and stylishness.

[Merc]

fair enough costi

[carl browne]

Costi's comments are always on the mark. But I might point out that in addition to this, heavier (wool) cloth can also be quite cool to wear if it has an open weave. I have two 14/15 oz. Minnis Fresco suits that are almost chilly when the weather drops below 70 degrees F. I also have a 17 oz. Cheviot suit which is far cooler than you might expect, because it isn't very tightly woven. I'm told that the LL's Brisa cloth is both substantial and cool to wear.

I've noticed that the high super numbered worsteds (super 120s and above) tend to be a problem because they are so tightly woven. Very little air moves through the fabric, causing them to be uncomfortably warm in hot weather. Conversely, they also tend to be very light, providing very little insulation when it's cold.

[Merc]

Costi's comments are always on the mark. But I might point out that in addition to this, heavier (wool) cloth can also be quite cool to wear if it has an open weave. I have two 14/15 oz. Minnis Fresco suits that are almost chilly when the weather drops below 70 degrees F. I also have a 17 oz. Cheviot suit which is far cooler than you might expect, because it isn't very tightly woven. I'm told that the LL's Brisa cloth is both substantial and cool to wear.
I've noticed that the high super numbered worsteds (super 120s and above) tend to be a problem because they are so tightly woven. Very little air moves through the fabric, causing them to be uncomfortably warm in hot weather. Conversely, they also tend to be very light, providing very little insulation when it's cold.

but i'll also bet you dont experience what i do: it was 66 F and sunny the other day,at about 2pm, and i had to take my jacket (9.8 oz s 120) off as i was too warm
so i doubt i'd find 14 oz fresco chilly below 70 or even 65. i agree with you about lighter weight in the winter although i run warm in the winter too

[Costi]

Merc, feeling warm / comfortable / cold is a function of individual metabolism, humidity, wind or lack thereof etc. A 10 oz Super 120's lined coat will wear hot in warm weather (because it doesn't breathe) and cold in cool weather (because it is too insubstantial to insulate) - just as carl browne very well explained - so no wonder you had to take your jacket off, especially if you tend to run warm in general. I suppose you ought to make your own experience with a heavier Fresco weave - I am pretty sure you won't be disappointed. Try it for a change from your tropical worsteds and super numbers that don't feel and don't look as good.

[J.S. Groot]

Thanks for the very informative replies. I suppose the tightness of the weave in a particular cloth is something one could discuss with one's tailor and in most instances see for oneself as well, however I'm a little curious about the Cheviot cloth you mention Carl, as I imagine a more loose weave would be a bit harder to spot on Cheviot or tweed in general, or am I entirely off on that point?

[Merc]

one other very obvious factor no one mentioned:
light colors. i try to keep to lighter colors for summer wear
navy blue on sunny days and you bake!

although i am curious about this supposed new Zegna "cool effects fabric"
it claims to reflect 70% or 80% of the sun's heat even in dark blue