DJ with sleeve cuffs

[Jasonmarshalljaz]

Im about to order my first custom Dinner suit and i'd like cuffs on the sleeve. what does tradition dictate concerning the sleeve button/ cuffs relationship. photos would be greatly appreciated.

[Costi]

Jason, traditional dinner jackets take four cloth-covered sleeve buttons and no cuffs. If you want to add cuffs, there is no tradition for you to worry about...

[Bishop of Briggs]

Jason, traditional dinner jackets take four cloth-covered sleeve buttons and no cuffs. If you want to add cuffs, there is no tradition for you to worry about...

Are you sure about the cloth covered buttons? They would not look right on a barathea DJ. In Britain, black horn buttons are more traditional IMHO.

[shredder]

None of the English examples that I have seen from the 40s had cloth covered buttons. Rather, they had polished horn or corozo buttons, which as the Bishop said, works rather well with Barathea. As an aside, most, if not all, of these also had 2 braids/ribbons on each trouser leg. I think the use of words like 'traditional' is frequently problematic since it seems to be a deceptively relative term.

Are turnback cuffs on DJs traditional? I would not even want to go there...

How long does it take for something to become traditional? DJs have not been around for a terribly long time, so the lead time is relatively short?

[dopey]

Jason, traditional dinner jackets take four cloth-covered sleeve buttons and no cuffs. If you want to add cuffs, there is no tradition for you to worry about...

Are you sure about the cloth covered buttons? They would not look right on a barathea DJ. In Britain, black horn buttons are more traditional IMHO.

I am not really sure what is traditional in Britain. My SR tailor suggested covered buttons with a 6x2 barathea DJ. I specifically asked about black or polished horn, but he preferred covered. I still haven't made up my mind.

I can't say I am a fan of the idea of sleeve cuffs on a DJ. I know the OP is a musician and I don't know if that goes into his thinking. If it is for performances, then I suppose anything goes. Nonetheless, even for a musician, I would think it inadvisable as the less frippery on the DJ the more focus on the sound. But certainly, if this is for personal life use rather than stage costume, I would leave it out.

[Will]

I don't have the photo handy but HRH Prince Charles wears a midnight blue DJ with sleeve cuffs.

And Thomas Mahon uses covered buttons. Of course, he also uses a grosgrain for the lapels that is woven in a width so narrow it cannot be used for bow ties so who is to say if he is correct.

[dopey]

I don't have the photo handy but HRH Prince Charles wears a midnight blue DJ with sleeve cuffs.

So does Daniel Craig's recent James Bond. I think sleeve cuffs on a shawl lapel SB DJ would like quite nice. But not on a SB or DB peak lapel. Not sure I have an opinion on DB shawl lapel, so I would probably leave it off.

And Thomas Mahon uses covered buttons. Of course, he also uses a grosgrain for the lapels that is woven in a width so narrow it cannot be used for bow ties so who is to say if he is correct.

I am convinced your fascination with having the silk of your tie match the silk on the lapels is an unfortunates side-effect of the California sun. It is a tie, not some wayward piece of your suit that tried to escape and got caught on your neck. BTW, what do you do about your shoes? Are the bows on your pumps made of the same silk also? Or do you use shoelaces made with silk grosgrain ribbon matching your lapels?

[Jordan Marc]

Jason:

Sleeve cuffs on a dinner suit, whether matching the fabric of the coat or faced with silk-satin to echo the facing of the lapels, is much too dandyish for your first commission. So are covered buttons. Keep it simple and classic. When you get to your middle years, you can always splash out on a velvet smoking jacket with a quilted satin shawl collar and matching deep cuffs as well as yards of passementerie. Screen Kind Hearts and Coronets to see a perfect example. In your later years you'll worry less about tailoring and more about having a creaky loved one constantly reminding you to close your fly.

JMB

[shredder]

a velvet smoking jacket with a quilted satin shawl collar and matching deep cuffs as well as yards of passementerie.

Are you suggesting that he step out of his house wearing a smoking jacket? Is this another US 'thing'

[Jordan Marc]

Shredder:

Not at all. Smoking jackets are worn at home. Sometimes for an intimate dinner with friends, other times for retiring to your study to read, write or listen to music. The only person I can think of who wore a smoking jacket out was the lead character in George Pal's version of The Time Machine, a gaff in costuming if ever there was one; but, then, to be accurate, technically the time traveler never really left his house as he journeyed into the future.

JMB

[Bishop of Briggs]

Im about to order my first custom Dinner suit and i'd like cuffs on the sleeve. what does tradition dictate concerning the sleeve button/ cuffs relationship. photos would be greatly appreciated.

The original DJ was invented by Edward VII, one button single breasted with peak lapels. IIRC, the shawl collar DJ has military, i.e. mess, origins. If seeking a traditional look, I would follow Edward VII's example with 4 black horn buttons on a plain sleeve.

Your choice of cloth should reflect where you will wear it. Modern hotels are over-heated and you would find a barathea of 13 oz or more too warm. An 11 or 12oz cloth, possibly a mohair mix, would be more flexible. Don't forget your waistcoat/vest too!

[storeynicholas]

Im about to order my first custom Dinner suit and i'd like cuffs on the sleeve. what does tradition dictate concerning the sleeve button/ cuffs relationship. photos would be greatly appreciated.

The original DJ was invented by Edward VII, one button single breasted with peak lapels. IIRC, the shawl collar DJ has military, i.e. mess, origins. If seeking a traditional look, I would follow Edward VII's example with 4 black horn buttons on a plain sleeve.

Your choice of cloth should reflect where you will wear it. Modern hotels are over-heated and you would find a barathea of 13 oz or more too warm. An 11 or 12oz cloth, possibly a mohair mix, would be more flexible. Don't forget your waistcoat/vest too!

I had a discussion with a cutter about turned back cuffs on a dinner jacket and he did not have to say much to dissuade me. So far as the original DJ is concerned, I am not sure that anyone really knows who was the first to design and wear this. Evander Berry Wall had one (by Poole) in the summer of 1886, although its exact specification is not known. Edward VII, as Prince of Wales, had a friend called Lord Dupplin ('Duppy') and, according to his descendant and namesake, the family lore is that, sometime in the late 19th Century, presumably before 1886, the P of W invited Duppy to a party on the royal yacht, after the London Season, and Duppy spoke to Poole about something new but suitable for the occasion and a dinner jacket was the result. Duppy was lightly ridiculed over it but the next Season, for stag dos and informal events, the P of W adopted a similar jacket (also made by Poole). No one (including Henry Poole), seems to know the exact specs for any of these jackets. However, it is clear that the Prince gave his approval to the use of this garment for less formal events and so, when he courted Mrs Brown Potter and she and her (shortly to be estranged), husband went to Sandringham during the summer of 1886, the use of the dinner jacket was firmly enough established for Potter to commission one from Poole. Again, nothing is known of the exact specification of the garment. In fact, I have recently discovered that Potter returned to New York alone. Mrs Brown Potter stayed in England with their daughter and she took to the stage. Potter introduced the DJ to the members of Tuxedo Park Club and it, sometimes, became referred to as a 'Tuxedo'. There is a spicy little extra fact demonstrating the link between Mrs Brown Potter and the P of W but that is in my next book (just delivered to he publisher) and I have to keep something back!
I am not sure that polished buttons are preferable to silk covered. I prefer silk covered myself. Court coats have cut steel buttons and forensic Court coats have cloth covered buttons. But unlike these formal clothes (for which there are clear specifications), I think that Costi is right when he says that there is no exact prescription - reflecting the fact that the DJ-Tuxedo is an informal garment.
NJS

[Costi]

I think that Costi is right when he says that there is no exact prescription - reflecting the fact that the DJ-Tuxedo is an informal garment.

Dear Nicholas,

Thanks for crediting me with being so open-minded, but I hope not to disappoint you when I say that's not really what I meant when I answered Jason "If you want to add cuffs, there is no tradition for you to worry about...". Rather, what I meant was that, in my opinion, having cuffed sleeves on a DJ is such a departure from whatever "tradition" exists in dinner suits (and I only referred to "tradition" because Jason asked the question in these terms), that it sounds like worrying whether 3 inch turnups are more or less traditional than 2 inch on a pair of white tie trousers.
However, I believe Jason is not set to revive historical costume here, and I take his question about "tradition" in the sense of what is considered tasteful, what may be worn today without being seen as "fashion".
Jason, if you are a musician about to commission an elegant dinner suit, please allow me to make a further plea: do have a "traditional" dinner suit made, as simple and classic as possible. I see so many "look at me how uniquely creative I am" so-called dinner suits on young musicians on the stage that do nothing but distract from their art. Stage dress for a musician, in my opinion, needs to be simple, comfortable (so you may play your instrument - or sing - without being annoyed by an ill-fitting garment) and tastefully discreet. I can't forget violinist Nikolaj Znaider in a festival last autumn, playing beautifully Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet" suite, dressed more or less like this and constantly arranging his red pocket square when he was not playing:

This kind of dress, at least for a classical musician, in my opinion detracts from the performance rather than enhance it.
If you are Nigel Kennedy though, do as you please and don't ask about tradition

[shredder]

However, I believe Jason is not set to revive historical costume here, and I take his question about "tradition" in the sense of what is considered tasteful, what may be worn today without being seen as "fashion".

I knew that the word is a bit of a minefield, but I would not have anticipated it to encompass notions such as 'tasteful' and 'today'. Even more dangerous than I imagined!!


If I may leave aside the word for a moment and revert to the remainder of the original query, then the typical relationship of the turnback cuff and the buttons are illustrated here in an SB shawl collar example that Dopey mentioned, with the collar / lapel facing, cuff and button covering in the same silk:


I would leave it to Jason to decide whether to replace 'typical' with 'traditional' in his interpretation!!

[Costi]

Shredder, you are right as far as words are concerned - it was a long shot.
As far as substance is concerned, I guess I admire the elegant simplicity of a dinner suit with no bells and whistle. My answer was more of a disguised suggestion, as I may have interpreted Jason's quest for a "traditional" model in the sense of my own tastes. We are yet to find out if I was wrong