Isn't that looking at the problem backwards? Demand for bespoke products should surely be the driving force, rather than attempting to train more tailors in the hope that that alone revives interest. And if bespoke clothing is very much better (and this forum exists because the readers believe that it is) than the fashion/rtw alternatives, then surely it can't be beyond the wit and talent of advertising professionals to demonstrate this. Isn't there some argument in following the marketing stratagy of the fashion houses that we loathe? Abercrombie and Fitch sell what I consider to be very undesirable and unflattering clothes in huge volumes, but they do so because they market themselves very well to a young audience. In a society that is obsessed with youth, isn't the best way of reviving the business of tailoring in demonstrating that young people look much better in well tailored clothing than they do in a T-shirt? Tailors might sell most to people in their thirties and above, but they will have formed their taste for such things in their twenties if not before. What about an organisation like the savile row association producing images on behalf of tailors in London? It is a fact that many people in England associate quality tailoring with 'looking like an old man', and surely fighting that image is the only way that the industry can be sustained.
Other than all that: I see the merits of quality, am not that well off, and I'm (see another thread) about to commission a dress coat, which I do have the occasion to use regularly enough to justify it. Because of that huge expense, I don't have much to spend on a business suit, which I also need. And to discover the best budget option was the purpose of this thread. So to keep the conversation on track; does anyone have any experience of MTM in London, that would be any better than Roderick Charles?
RTW in London
Exactly and the LL was created to be a source of information about tailoring for young men who are the potential new clients needed to keep the trade alive. If young men make sense of it and desire it, then someplace, a new generation of young tailors will get themselves trained to fill the demand. A nice theory. Some editors have eyed the bespoke world or some variation on the theme and that is a bit helpful.Demand for bespoke products should surely be the driving force, rather than attempting to train more tailors in the hope that that alone revives interest.
But the experienced here have not done you much service regarding a good RTW maker in London. Does anyone know of a good RTW maker in London? Edwin DeBoise does an MTM line. If you take a moment to search on English Cut, I think Thomas Mahon posted some ideas about good RTW and MTM makers a few years ago.
Cheers
Michael
I agree, we are off track here and I apologize. Perhaps, if there is enough interest, we can start a new thread on "how to convince a young man to become a tailor".
Dressing elegantly is no part-time job. And I believe bespoke tailoring is an indispendable means to that end. I am not sure I would reduce my daily lunch to McDonald's in order to afford lobsters and caviar a few times a year. I think it is important to start with the basics, because dressing elegantly is an attitude, not a whim.
A business suit is something you will wear at least five days a week: THIS is the real treat - enjoying the benefits of bespoke every day, rather than on those special occasions only a few times a year. I, for one, would not have a tailcoat made before I had my everyday basics covered with good quality clothing.
So, my advice is to get a bespoke business suit first. In the meantime you can gather more information on white tie, define and refine your ideas, search for the ideal cloth, the cut and the tailor you like best. And when you finally commission your tailcoat, you will have more valuable experience as a bespoke customer, too! That is not to be underestimated, because the tailcoat is a "specialty" article of dress, which not only requires good expertise on the side of the tailor, but also a good deal of experience on the side of the bespeaker.
Check out this post from Thomas Mahon's blog: http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000274.html, I hope it will help you get a better idea of what a difficult piece the tailcoat is (more so than the morning coat presented there). You certainly need a good tailor, but also a few basic notions of balance, styling, what a first and second fitting look like and what can be adjusted at each stage, so you can work TOGETHER with your tailor for that "most stylish tailcoat ever". It is very difficult for both parties if you go to a tailor and order a tailcoat as your FIRST bespoke garment from him. It is best to find a tailor who is capable of making a tailcoat (not many are!), order a suit / odd jacket or two and THEN, after he gets the chance to refine your pattern and improve the fit, go for the tailcoat.
Dressing elegantly is no part-time job. And I believe bespoke tailoring is an indispendable means to that end. I am not sure I would reduce my daily lunch to McDonald's in order to afford lobsters and caviar a few times a year. I think it is important to start with the basics, because dressing elegantly is an attitude, not a whim.
A business suit is something you will wear at least five days a week: THIS is the real treat - enjoying the benefits of bespoke every day, rather than on those special occasions only a few times a year. I, for one, would not have a tailcoat made before I had my everyday basics covered with good quality clothing.
So, my advice is to get a bespoke business suit first. In the meantime you can gather more information on white tie, define and refine your ideas, search for the ideal cloth, the cut and the tailor you like best. And when you finally commission your tailcoat, you will have more valuable experience as a bespoke customer, too! That is not to be underestimated, because the tailcoat is a "specialty" article of dress, which not only requires good expertise on the side of the tailor, but also a good deal of experience on the side of the bespeaker.
Check out this post from Thomas Mahon's blog: http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000274.html, I hope it will help you get a better idea of what a difficult piece the tailcoat is (more so than the morning coat presented there). You certainly need a good tailor, but also a few basic notions of balance, styling, what a first and second fitting look like and what can be adjusted at each stage, so you can work TOGETHER with your tailor for that "most stylish tailcoat ever". It is very difficult for both parties if you go to a tailor and order a tailcoat as your FIRST bespoke garment from him. It is best to find a tailor who is capable of making a tailcoat (not many are!), order a suit / odd jacket or two and THEN, after he gets the chance to refine your pattern and improve the fit, go for the tailcoat.
Last edited by Costi on Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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storeynicholas
I am sure that no one means to be unhelpful. In some ways, this MTM (dressed up as 'personal tailoring') is just what we are grumbling about - but if he insists on MTM - here is a good one - and at least Hackett preserves the decency of distinguishing between 'bespoke' and 'peronal tailoring' -
http://www.hackett.com/index.cfm?page=1233
I also believe that they will make minor alterations to RTW and the price is good; the products endorsed by several people that I know.
But he should remember that there are good firms 'off the Row' in central London (already mentioned in the thread) that will cut a fully bespoke suit for around the upper price range of Hackett's MTM (personal tailoring) - in a very decent, serviceable serge, hopsack, plain herringbone worsted etc. but it's up to him. Costello & Sons in Ilford is also worth a thought: http://www.costello.co.uk/
Connock & Lockie have no site but - here are the details - http://www.londonnet.co.uk/listings/clo ... loomsbury/
I just add, for the avoidance of doubt, that I do not receive sponsorship, discounts or any other benefits from recommending anyone - I am a free spirit and suffer, accordingly. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to suffer too - especially when they don't have my ready access to cheap plonk to take the edge off it all. Maybe, since the LL does such sterling service to the London bespoke industry, Michael, you could cut a deal to introduce a restricted number of youngsters (selected by say the first six correct answers, drawn out of a hat, to an LL quizz), at special rates, to some of London's finest (including London-trained tailors such as Thomas Mahon) - on the pitch that, once a man has had a top-end suit, there's no going back to rubbish and, more likely than not, the customers will find a way to return: one specially discounted suit per introduction and the firms can use photos as promo (is that the word), maybe, in accordance with RJ Mann's observation, with a few a adoring, hot chicks draped around the place (remember the Dormeuil ads?).
Bespoke now needs sexiness and humour; accessibility and the sharp point made that it is top value, for top goods, to bring in more youngsters, otherwise sorely tempted by MTM - the line would be - "I nearly went MTM - but look at me now" - leaving out the reference to a special 'promo' deal. In fact, it could be a worldwide promotion - for all acknowledged makers (exacly who they are, is up to you). There are journalists around here that could work up articles in popular magazines (Maxim gave my book a thumbs-up - in amongst the football books) - and the photography could be such that no customer were easily identifiable - unless they didn't mind. Everyone's a winner - a few lucky youngsters get the suits of their dreams -and the scent of clean hair and summertime
- and the participating firms (presumably not yet into MTM - or prepared to turn away from it), get to fight back - and get some kickback too .
Bespoke needs a copywriter like Dorothy L Sayers (the famous Guinness ads) to attract people to it - pull them in - am I to understand that these poly-educated 'designers', on their 6 week courses, can really outpace the old makers?
It depends on will. It depends on talent. It depends on thrust. It depends on exposure. It depends on fighting back. Kicking against the pricks. The money is there. Stir them up. Push them out there. See what happens. Have I missed my vocation - or am I just an old fool. Anyway I am serious in making the suggestion. It could even extend to bespoke shirts and shoes -but we cannot yet promise spider silk ties.
NJS.
http://www.hackett.com/index.cfm?page=1233
I also believe that they will make minor alterations to RTW and the price is good; the products endorsed by several people that I know.
But he should remember that there are good firms 'off the Row' in central London (already mentioned in the thread) that will cut a fully bespoke suit for around the upper price range of Hackett's MTM (personal tailoring) - in a very decent, serviceable serge, hopsack, plain herringbone worsted etc. but it's up to him. Costello & Sons in Ilford is also worth a thought: http://www.costello.co.uk/
Connock & Lockie have no site but - here are the details - http://www.londonnet.co.uk/listings/clo ... loomsbury/
I just add, for the avoidance of doubt, that I do not receive sponsorship, discounts or any other benefits from recommending anyone - I am a free spirit and suffer, accordingly. But that doesn't mean that everyone has to suffer too - especially when they don't have my ready access to cheap plonk to take the edge off it all. Maybe, since the LL does such sterling service to the London bespoke industry, Michael, you could cut a deal to introduce a restricted number of youngsters (selected by say the first six correct answers, drawn out of a hat, to an LL quizz), at special rates, to some of London's finest (including London-trained tailors such as Thomas Mahon) - on the pitch that, once a man has had a top-end suit, there's no going back to rubbish and, more likely than not, the customers will find a way to return: one specially discounted suit per introduction and the firms can use photos as promo (is that the word), maybe, in accordance with RJ Mann's observation, with a few a adoring, hot chicks draped around the place (remember the Dormeuil ads?).
Bespoke now needs sexiness and humour; accessibility and the sharp point made that it is top value, for top goods, to bring in more youngsters, otherwise sorely tempted by MTM - the line would be - "I nearly went MTM - but look at me now" - leaving out the reference to a special 'promo' deal. In fact, it could be a worldwide promotion - for all acknowledged makers (exacly who they are, is up to you). There are journalists around here that could work up articles in popular magazines (Maxim gave my book a thumbs-up - in amongst the football books) - and the photography could be such that no customer were easily identifiable - unless they didn't mind. Everyone's a winner - a few lucky youngsters get the suits of their dreams -and the scent of clean hair and summertime
- and the participating firms (presumably not yet into MTM - or prepared to turn away from it), get to fight back - and get some kickback too . Bespoke needs a copywriter like Dorothy L Sayers (the famous Guinness ads) to attract people to it - pull them in - am I to understand that these poly-educated 'designers', on their 6 week courses, can really outpace the old makers?
It depends on will. It depends on talent. It depends on thrust. It depends on exposure. It depends on fighting back. Kicking against the pricks. The money is there. Stir them up. Push them out there. See what happens. Have I missed my vocation - or am I just an old fool. Anyway I am serious in making the suggestion. It could even extend to bespoke shirts and shoes -but we cannot yet promise spider silk ties.
NJS.
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YoungLawyer
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NJS
What a good idea!
What a good idea!
In the UK the situation is not helped by the government's misguided education policies which aim at keeping pupils/students in education for as long as possible, however unsuitable the candidates or useless the qualifications. Nursing, for example, is now a degree course. Spurious qualifications are valued over real skills and experience.Costi wrote:Let's put a different perspective to this gloomy doomsday talk: what arguments would you use to advise a young man to take up tailoring? Not as in opening up a boutique and become the designer of factory-made clothing after a couple of years of "studying" in I-don't-know-what Fashion Academy in Milano or elsewhere. Tailoring, as in becoming an apprentice, learning the craft from a "master" by building up practical experience, sewing, than cutting etc.
How would you argue in favor of such a carreer choice in today's world? If we can come up with good arguments, maybe we can find the channels and means to promote them.
Thus anyone showing an interest in clothing is directed towards some sort of fashion or textiles degree course. Some of what is leanred is no doubt useful but it is not a substitute for what is required for our purpose of keeping the bespoke trade invigorated, namely the hard graft of apprenticeship and skills handed on from craftsman to craftsman. If the govermnet does want to interfere in this area then perhaps they could direct themselves to encouraging such apprenticeships, but they are terrified of supporting anything which smacks of elitism.
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storeynicholas
JRLT - and it's a funny old society that sees apprenticed tailors as the elite but not nurses with degrees - although I suspect that nurses need more training than before because, as a cost-cutting exercise, they are probably doing some tasks formerly reserved to doctors. Elitism does not explain the failure to encourage the training of carpenters, cabinet-makers, smiths and metal-workers, stone masons and so on. And it is not an answer to say that there is no need of them. The Bitish have just got used to the fact that these skills have largely been lost (for reasons associated with politics and spin - started long before the present lot (- 1970s - abolition of Grammar Schools etc and later on the pretence that the useful old Polies should be called 'universities') and the British have learned to put up with stapled roof beams (in kiln-dried pine) and cardboard walls. Here, in a seaside town, 50 miles NE of Rio Centro, there is a long road lined with the workshops of artisans and they are all busy - you need your rusting railings repaired - you call out Metallurgica Max. Meanwhile, the UK state schools often don't even offer wood and metal work and cookery anymore - because there is this silly pretence that everyone is going to have a 'degree' and be an 'executive' - and the result is too many chiefs in MTM synthetic feathers. It probably is reversible but it would take some political guts to shake a stick at it all - and even that is in short supply.
NJS
NJS
Last edited by storeynicholas on Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Try Pal Zileri , Bond street . I have a suit a bought from them 7 years ago (it's from what they called their sartorial collection) . Soft tailoring , hand work on a few parts , very good flannel fabric . For RTW overall including value for money I would give 9 out of 10.
cheers
Vassilis
cheers
Vassilis
YoungLawyer,
One of the issues near and dear to our hearts around this neck of the woods is fit. Given the weight given to this particular issue, apart from the fact that some of us have not bought RTW in a few years, I think it becomes very difficult to recommend any particular RTW suppliers without being familiar with how your body conforms to the block used by a particular RTW supplier. That is, of course, assuming that all else is perhaps not equal but similar. I think it is a bit difficult to get any more specific than, "go try a few makes and see which one fits best and falls within your budget."
As others have mentioned, I believe that you can get off-Row bespoke at about your price point but you should expect that they take some shortcuts on things like internals.
My tailors have a MTM offer that falls within your budget. However, as I have not tried it, I cannot comment on it except to say that they are made by a factory in central Europe and are based on my tailors' proprietary block.
If you do end up going the MTM route, then you might be interested to know that many tailors / retailers use the same factory and may be using the same standard block made by the manufacturer. Some MTM manufacturers like Scabal refuse to use the re-seller's proprietary block, so every Scabal MTM retailer offers the exact same product.
s
One of the issues near and dear to our hearts around this neck of the woods is fit. Given the weight given to this particular issue, apart from the fact that some of us have not bought RTW in a few years, I think it becomes very difficult to recommend any particular RTW suppliers without being familiar with how your body conforms to the block used by a particular RTW supplier. That is, of course, assuming that all else is perhaps not equal but similar. I think it is a bit difficult to get any more specific than, "go try a few makes and see which one fits best and falls within your budget."
As others have mentioned, I believe that you can get off-Row bespoke at about your price point but you should expect that they take some shortcuts on things like internals.
My tailors have a MTM offer that falls within your budget. However, as I have not tried it, I cannot comment on it except to say that they are made by a factory in central Europe and are based on my tailors' proprietary block.
If you do end up going the MTM route, then you might be interested to know that many tailors / retailers use the same factory and may be using the same standard block made by the manufacturer. Some MTM manufacturers like Scabal refuse to use the re-seller's proprietary block, so every Scabal MTM retailer offers the exact same product.
s
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Frog in Suit
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storeynicholas wrote: Bespoke needs a copywriter like Dorothy L Sayers
NJS.
Bespoke Must Advertise, what
?Frog in Suit
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storeynicholas
Exactly, it's certainly better than The Unpleasantness at the Savile Club!Frog in Suit wrote:storeynicholas wrote: Bespoke needs a copywriter like Dorothy L Sayers
NJS.
Bespoke Must Advertise, what
Frog in Suit
NJS
PS You've nearly started a diversion there as her crime novels are about the best as far as I am concerned: one of my favourites being - The Nine Tailors!
NJS
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YoungLawyer
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Thank you again for replies,
I went for a walk up to Lamb's Conduit street yesterday, and walked into Connock and Lockie and Sims & McDonald. They quoted about £1500 and £900 for a 2 piece bespoke suit respectively, but their prices for dress coats were more similar, just over £2000. C & L seemed to have several of those currently being made up, but S & McD only made a few a year. Has anyone on this forum used either of these tailors recently? Can anyone explain the price difference between the two?
I'm starting to be convinced that full bespoke might be worth saving for for both projects. I certainly wouldn't be able to afford both at the higher price however, so still face the prospect of having the dress coat (eventually) made at somewhere where I am still a first time visitor.
I went for a walk up to Lamb's Conduit street yesterday, and walked into Connock and Lockie and Sims & McDonald. They quoted about £1500 and £900 for a 2 piece bespoke suit respectively, but their prices for dress coats were more similar, just over £2000. C & L seemed to have several of those currently being made up, but S & McD only made a few a year. Has anyone on this forum used either of these tailors recently? Can anyone explain the price difference between the two?
I'm starting to be convinced that full bespoke might be worth saving for for both projects. I certainly wouldn't be able to afford both at the higher price however, so still face the prospect of having the dress coat (eventually) made at somewhere where I am still a first time visitor.
It does seem strange, given that the two businesses are on the same street and practically opposite each other, meaning that overheads can't be much of a factor (which is the reason (or claimed to be the reason) why you pay such a premium for a suit from SR itself). And, as far as I know, the two firms have much the same profile in the market, so there isn't scope for C&L to trade on its heritage and charge accordingly in a way that is not open to S&M.
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YoungLawyer
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Perhaps this thread should now be changed to 'first bespoke suit in London', with appropriate advice to be given. I'll decide which tailors to go to for a lounge suit this week.
My most sincere congratulations!YoungLawyer wrote:Perhaps this thread should now be changed to 'first bespoke suit in London', with appropriate advice to be given. I'll decide which tailors to go to for a lounge suit this week.
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