Hats - true bespoke

[le.gentleman]

Welcome Andy!

I am sure you will enjoy the wealth of information here! Also over at the fedoralounge you'll find plenty of information. There, you should bear in mind though that some people seema very precise ideal of what is good and what is not.
Yesterday, I got an email from an FL member agreeing with me:"Most people on the FL have a set idea what makes a great hat. They only like pounced soft felt(beaver is superior to all view point), large crown, 2+ inch brim and no taper. They do not like long hair finishes, velour, taper, and shorter brims + crowns. They confuse style with quality."

He also added a link to a postingat the FL which I think is spot on: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost ... stcount=14

Here is what it says: "We greatly overestimate and even mythologize vintage quality, making large generalizations. One can certainly say the quality of the "average" hat has decreased. How can one possibly define "best" felt given the range of possible fur sources--rabbit(wild or not), hare ,muskrat,nutria, beaver,mink, etc......) thickness,stiffness,weight,length of fur and degree of smoothness the hatter aims for. Some may be better for particular uses, some preferred for style purposes and some desired for entirely subjective reasons. As to chemicals, Mercury was banned in the USA for hats in 1941, and most of us would consider many hats made after that date to be fine quality products. Many of the vintage hats beloved here were merely decent quality mass-produced products of their time, more remarkable for their style than a hypothetical felt "quality". There are only a limited number of sources currently for felts so I would imagine that some of the same raw materials go into hats of a wide range of price and perceived quality. Any piece of felt can be pounced and some are not intended to be. Some mass-production is of a very high standard and some "custom" hatters can be merely more expensive. The felt issue is really fuzzy. As a specific example, I have 7 Borsalino hats,1930's-1990's, and I can honestly state that no two have the same felt(requiring no particular expertise to detect). How can one decide which is best? Obviously some things are near-cardboard junk(even vintage examples exist). Construction quality issues are a bit more obvious. There is always a range of quality at any time not inextricably linked to price alone."

[edhayes]

worth and worth in NYC on 57 st makes bespoke hats for me. the lining, the hatband, the brin width, the material are all made to my specs. However, I use stock sizes. I have a brown hat from him with a purple hat band that is a sexual experience. At least, what passes for a sexual experience for a middle aged Irish guy.

[rjman]

Tutee:

Perhaps it's a subject for a new thread, but could you speak about your experience with the British hat shops Lock and Herbert Johnson? I'm just curious. I know that when I asked HJ about a repair six years ago, even back then they said their hat specialist only was in once a week.

[Etutee]

Tutee:

Perhaps it's a subject for a new thread, but could you speak about your experience with the British hat shops Lock and Herbert Johnson? I'm just curious. I know that when I asked HJ about a repair six years ago, even back then they said their hat specialist only was in once a week.

Hi RJ

That “specialist” if I think who it was retired from HJ in 2003 and died last year sadly (more on that below).

what do you want to know about Lock and HJ? The service, the quality, the finishing of hats?
Since Lock didn't offered any bespoke or even MTM service, my experience is more with HJ in terms of non-rtw products than Lock. So with Lock I have RTW products as I would assume with other people also. Honestly, if you want a felt hat and are in US you have no excuse for ordering from Lock at all! These days your options in US are FAR more attractive than anything in UK, unless you are looking for a derby or a topper (don't know why you would be still) lock is out of the question at least for me.

I did tell you my HJ story 5 years ago but looks like you forgot lol! Anyways, it was some 7-8 years ago I was in search for a hat in specific shape felt. I called HJ and the sales lady said well they don't do anything unusual but I may be interested to speak with their Men's specialist Richard who will be there on another days. So I called later and spoke to this "Richard" he was knowledgeable and oddly kind of rude but I didn't pay much attention to that and ordered the hat from them. He said he will be in charge for my order. The price was $350 or so with shipping back then which is ALOT for a rabbit hat and totally unjustified. I highly doubt my hat was "made” (put on the block) by Richard himself. It was probably factory ordered and he may have put some final touches on it. Anyways...

I got the hat a few weeks later and it was more or less what I asked for. In terms of felt quality it was okay, very soft or as hat lovers call it "floppy" and with a hairy finish but certainly not dense or anything like that. The rest of the finishing was okay and pales in comparison to some US makers. I can go in detail if you really want to know individual elements but you will have to let me know what you are interested in first.

Now about this guy Richard. If you are a non Herbert Johnson history major or a non-Indy lover as me, this Richard that I spoke to was "Richard Swales" who personally made the hat for Harrison Ford that he wore in Raiders of Lost Ark. It has almost a cult like following and there are thousands and thousands of people who like Star Wars fan ogle over every cm of detail that was incorporated in Raiders hat. So I understood why he was kind of rude as he probably use to get hundreds of call every week from these "fans" asking him useless questions for trivia and following him around perhaps. He retired in 2003 I guess and with him went the last remaining trace of HJ's knowledge bank and experience. Sadly he died last year.

HJ hats even 10 years ago were not made by HJ. They contracted various factories to do this for them both in UK and elsewhere. There was a time when HJ owned their factory and I could get you a better timeline on that but that was not anytime recent.

Back in 2000-02 they were still making a few hat designs outside of Indy hat called the "poet" model in brown but with each passing year their offerings became less and less to now they are at a point where the only fedora they offer online is the Poet model and have discontinued all other models. They may offer other styles over the phone or through the shop directly but I haven't been there in 5 years.

About their follow-up service: I took the hat with me to their shop in 2004 fall for cleaning/re-blocking but by this time as I mentioned Swales was gone and their staff had no idea who could re-block and clean their very own hat! That was the final straw for me. I knew HJ is done for once Swales was gone and now with the passing of the man it just makes it sort of official.

To reiterate, if you are in US and in market for $200 or over for a felt hat.... your options in US are FAR more attractive than ordering something from these two firms. They are nothing but names / labels and have been like this for many years (e.g James and James etc). If you need service on an older hat from Lock and HJ do NOT send it to them unless you know exactly who will be working on your hat and you that person's work. Send it to Optimo Chicago http://www.optimohats.com/ if it is a recent hat (post 70s) or if it is an older one send it to Art Fawcett http://www.vintagesilhouettes.com/ I have used both of them for bespoke hats and repair services and highly recommend them. For repair related services their prices are more or less the same, however Optimo's turn out time is much faster (about 7-10days) than Art who usually takes about 3-5 weeks.

Hope it helps if you need anything additional let me know and I will see if I can give feedback.

Regards

[Etutee]

if anyone of you care for an Indy like HJ fedora... now is the best time in years to get one because HJ recently changed their felt source and it is good rabbit felt what they have now. I have been told by some hard core hat lovers that HJ felts are best in years but for Indy version order through http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/-c-91_35.html for FAR Superior results than directly from HJ. With this above website you can change the crown height and brim width if you feel the original version are too big for you (like me). If you want other shapes than order from HJ but only if price is around or less than $200 (for those in US). Any more than that and you are wasting money.

P.S wait time with above linked website is about 4 months

worth and worth in NYC on 57 st makes bespoke hats for me. the lining, the hatband, the brin width, the material are all made to my specs. However, I use stock sizes. I have a brown hat from him with a purple hat band that is a sexual experience. At least, what passes for a sexual experience for a middle aged Irish guy.

Just saw this and thought I should respond to this while I have time. Worth and Worth was a great US hatter that closed down their main shop on Madison Ave years ago and now maintain a smaller premise. Right now “Worth and worth” means their manager Orlando who bought the company from Harry Rosenholtz I guess sometime between 1998 and 2002? Not sure, anyways he is the lead person you want to talk to and I believe that is who Mr. Hayes deals with also.

http://www.hatshop.com/

Their hats back when I used to shop were made by Cappellificio Cervo an Italian hat factory near Biella, Italy. They used to have a website but for the life of me I can’t find it anymore. Back 7-8 years ago Cervo used to make hats for Worth and Worth, in fact if you order custom the hat was shipped directly from Italy so it came in a Cervo box instead of Worth’s. The hats were good (again not comparing to vintage but modern) but were rather expensive for custom $300 or so for rabbit and $400 for beaver. The felt was nothing like FEPSA of Portugal but then again rarely anybody’s felt is like that. The downside was that orders took forever to arrive 3-4 months and were often unreliable (details from order were not always incorporated). I ordered at least 3 bespoke hats and still have some RTW from Worth and Worth.

I think they use Guerra now, which is another super small hat factory in Italy and may further subcontract because of their very limited resources. Their hats are good and a lot less than Borsalino but the problem is they again like Cervo will not sell to public and are dying out because nobody knows them in USA. Here in US we get easily excited about the name Borsalino and the knowledge of Italian hats start and ends with them for most people. They make very nice cashmere finish hats. http://www.guerra1855.com/uk/flash.htm

I have not ordered through Worth and Worth recently, especially given their prices for bespoke which are over $300 for rabbit and $400 for beaver. The biggest problem I see is that Orlando while being knowledgeable and helpful is Not a hat maker but more like a middle person between you and the factory which in this case is either Guerra or Cervo. So in that sense the definitions starts to get a little hazy if you really go into it. If you are a long time customer of them like Mr. Hayes and have been satisfied so far, I see no reason to switch your hatter but for someone trying out new hatter (unless you have your heart set on Guerra or Cervo) there are better options for bespoke… in my opinion at least.

For RTW hats I really like them because most of their hats have a softness to them often missing in other factory made hats especially at that price $190-$280.

[uppercase]

Excellent post and information!

BTW, is there anything that I can do for hats that have shrunk due to rain?

[kilted2000]

Excellent post and information!

BTW, is there anything that I can do for hats that have shrunk due to rain?

You can buy hat stretchers that are sort of shoe tree for hats.

[marcelo]

Excellent post and information!

BTW, is there anything that I can do for hats that have shrunk due to rain?

You can buy hat stretchers that are sort of shoe tree for hats.

This topic was once addressed in (the middle of) this thread: http://www.thelondonlounge.net/forum/vi ... =33&t=8250

[Etutee]

Excellent post and information!

BTW, is there anything that I can do for hats that have shrunk due to rain?

Of course there is. By Shrunk I think you mean the crown has became tapered and the size reduced. You need to have it reblocked by a professional hatter. Who was it made by originally and how old? If you don't mind me asking and where do you reside EU or elsewhere? Your options are going to vary accordingly but in any case unless you are talking of an extreme case where it is truly beyond saving... this should not be a problem.

[uppercase]

The particular hat that I am thinking of is an inexpensive panama from Bates, London.
The hat got rained on. It shrank and now sits too high on my head.
I did take it to Bates, they steamed it and stretched it while I waited but the man told me that the 'stretch' would not last; it did not and the hat resumed its shrunken size. So now, it doesn't fit: it seems it shrank by about 1cm and sits too high on the head.
So I think that this straw hat has to now be relegated to occassional beach wear...unless you have solution for a straw hat available in the New York area?

[Etutee]

The particular hat that I am thinking of is an inexpensive panama from Bates, London.
The hat got rained on. It shrank and now sits too high on my head.

I did take it to Bates, they steamed it and stretched it while I waited but the man told me that the 'stretch' would not last; it did not and the hat resumed its shrunken size. So now, it doesn't fit: it seems it shrank by about 1cm and sits too high on the head.
So I think that this straw hat has to now be relegated to occassional beach wear...unless you have solution for a straw hat available in the New York area?

yeah... that sounds bad. I was actually thinking of felt rather than straw when I posted that. Felt is more forgiving than straw in many regards and this is one of them. 1cm does not sound much but then again I am not a hatter and neither do I have the hat. Uppercase, if you are willing why don't you give Graham Thompson of Optimo (Chicago) a call? http://www.optimohats.com/ He ships worldwide and is about as good as they get with straw these days. Make sure you speak to him personally and explain then see what he says. You may need to send the hat to him for a better assessment.

The problem is that he is not cheap and this process (especially if shipping internationally) could end up costing a bit much. Now, that will depend on how much you like the hat and/or how expensive was it when you purchased it. There are other hatters in US who will also do this kind of repair but Optimo will be my first recommendation for this repair.

sadly, there are no great straw repair options in NY anymore especially if you already took it to Bates and they couldn't help much.

I will see if I can find some more info on this for you.

P.S if it is only a cm difference... you may want to consider taking out the liner or leather sweatband (esp) and have it replaced with a silk grosgrain sweatband. Leather does not stretch much unlike cloth sweatbands and cloth bands are certainly less in circumference (thin-ness) . Just a suggestion

[AndyM]

I cannot help with the shrunken panama but I do strongly recommend the use of a hat stretcher for felt hats or tweed caps. I bought one on Ebay and it is effective in stretching hats that have shrunk or were slightly too small to begin with. They need to be used with care though as it is easy to over-stretch and damage a hat.

[davidhuh]

Optimo hats has launched its new web site - brilliant, informative, great videos.

Look at this: http://www.optimohats.com/#/our_felt/

Makes me dram of a long hair beaver finish melusine or a silver belly hat. Cloth merchants could learn something (or the tailors!).

cheers, david

[HenryLiska]

Absolutely. Stephen Temkin of Leon Drexler in Toronto provides a true bespoke hat service. I have had two hats made by Stephen and will order a third when my wallet can afford afford it. The first hat is a modified Homburg made from black beaver felt and black, genuine silk ribbon; the second a fedora in pale "malt" coloured beaver felt and nutmeg silk ribbon. Will at a Suitable Wardrobe has also received a modified Homburg from Stephen and is having a second hat made. You can contact Stephen at stemkin@leondrexler.com.

[davidhuh]

Gentlemen,

a week ago, during a long lay over in Chicago, I jumped on a taxi to visit Optimo hat. Luckily, Mr Graham Thompson was in the downtown shop. Now this is a truly amazing place - well worth a journey. I spent about two hours with Mr Thompson, trying on hats and discussing felt and styles.

Finally, I walked away with the most amazing hat I ever bought - a beaver belly fur hat in blue pearl . The hat is truly something from a different planet and a true pleasure to wear.

If ever you are in Chicago, do not miss this little paradise on S Dearborne Street!

Cheers, David