To show some shirt cuff--what has to give?

[psquare]

May I humbly ask for your advice...

I have short arms, so whenever I purchase a jacket or shirt, the sleeves need to be shortened. Always.

Here is my dilemma: I would like about half an inch of shirt cuff to show through my jacket sleeve. However:

The tailor that alters my shirts shortens the sleeve to the break of my wrist.
The (other) tailor that alters my jacket shortens the sleeve to the break of my wrist.

When I wear my ensemble to protest the lack of visible shirt cuff, I get the following responses:

Shirt tailor: I altered your shirt *perfectly*. It is your jacket that is too long!
Jacket tailor: I altered your suit *perfectly*. It is your shirt that is too short!

The distance between my mid-shoulder blade area and the break in my wrists is 31 inches. What should I say or do to my two tailors to address this issue? Or should I have my clothes altered elsewhere?

All responses warmly welcomed. Thank you.

[bepmep]

I have always gone by the rule that the shirt cuff should end right at the "first joint" of the thumb, meaning, the base of the hand, or end of the wrist. I like to show quite a bit of cuff. I always have a nice, stiff white french cuff on all of my normal daywear, so it is nice to show it off. Most people swear to the half inch of cuff, but that seems a little skimpy to me. But I also love big wide 30's lapels, so most of my opinions are a bit archaic to say the least. I think a "too long" jacket sleeve looks more awkward than a slightly "too short" one. And seeing no shirt cuff makes it look like you are wearing a short sleeve polo shirt under your jacket. So to cut to the chase, I would say use the shirt sleeve length as the benchmark. The jacket sleeve length changes as soon as you bend your arm anyway.

[psquare]

I have always gone by the rule that the shirt cuff should end right at the "first joint" of the thumb, meaning, the base of the hand, or end of the wrist. I like to show quite a bit of cuff.

*Looks at own hand* That is quite a bit of cuff. I write with a temperamental fountain pen. My white cuffs would turn a nice shade of blue if I had my sleeves that long.

I think a "too long" jacket sleeve looks more awkward than a slightly "too short" one.

[...]

So to cut to the chase, I would say use the shirt sleeve length as the benchmark.

I'll take two comments to heart. I intend to ask the (jacket) tailor to shorten the next pair of jacket sleeves by a tad. Who knows? If things go pear-shape, perhaps I can start a new trend by wearing jackets with elbow-length short sleeves.

[couch]

@psquare: Just a couple of notes that might help your assessment, though you may be aware of them already. Some tailors (vs. shirtmakers) prefer to mark jacket sleeve length from an agreed point on your wrist (usually, in my experience, the dent between the end of the wristbone and the thumb joint, measured with the arm bent at a right angle). They prefer this method because often shirt cuffs end at different points depending on how snugly the cuff sits on the wrist or how long the shirt sleeve is cut, and because variations in shirt armhole height may cause shirt cuffs to pull up by different amounts once the jacket is put on (especially if the shirt sleeve length had been originally measured without a jacket on). The tailor can get a more stable mark working from your anatomy--unless you are both certain that all your shirts are cut to, and fit to, the same length with that particular tailor's jacket on. If you are discussing an alterations tailor working on RTW or MTM jackets from several makers, the wristbone method is even more understandable, since the armholes of jackets can vary so much. That said, if both your makers are using the same biometric point, and fitting with the jacket on, then one of them must change if you are to show linen at the wrist. Top of the thumb joint is not unusual for the shirt-cuff ending point, which on me would theoretically leave between a quarter-inch and three-eighths of an inch of linen exposed. That is, it would if all my shirt sleeves were exactly the same length. On days when my sleeves are a bit shy, I take some comfort from NJS's spirited citation of showing little or no cuff in midcentury London. Since it sounds as though you like your shirt-sleeve length, your plan of asking for a slight recession of the jacket sleeve seems sound to me.

Cheers,
couch

[bepmep]

@psquare: When I say "first joint" of the thumb, I mean the one at the VERY base of the hand, not so much where the finger bends. Basically, right where the wrist stops and the hand starts. As we can all see throughout the LL photos, depending on what era you are influenced by or think is "correct" for your own tastes, there is some leeway.

[psquare]

To both couch and bepmep: Thank you for your responses. Can you please assist me in clarifying the phrase "first joint of the thumb" if I provide a visual?

(Disclosure: The attached graphic is from http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/sma/sma_xdequer_art.htm. I provided the text.)

Thus...in the illustration, would the "first joint of the thumb" be where I have placed the gray arrow?

Anyone is welcome to re-edit this visual to provide more information.

[couch]

@psquare: I agree with bepmep. Your picture does not show any bump at the end of the forearm (the head and styloid process of the radius) so it's easy to miss the parts here. Note the indentation between the end of the forearm (radius) and the joint formed by the trapezium (a carpal bone) and the thumb's metacarpal:



In practice the ligaments covering the trapezium/metacarpal make this joint into one shape, which is the prominent "first thumb joint" or "base of the thumb" referred to in earlier posts (note that this image is flipped compared to the first):



On my wrist the distance between the bump at the widest part of the radius and the protrusion at the base of the thumb (the trapezium-metacarpal joint) is about an inch, but of course a bit less if measured along a straight line with the axis of the radius. A tailor bends my arm at the elbow and sticks his thumb into the indentation (at the radio-carpal joint) between the radius and the base of the thumb to measure the coat sleeve length. If my shirt sleeve sits at the base of the thumb joint it will leave somewhere between a quarter to three-eighths-inch of cuff showing beyond the coat when my arm is bent at right angles, I am motionless, and the shirt is cut with appropriate armhole height and elbow ease for the coat in question. However, as Michael so eloquently reminds us in another thread, we are seldom motionless and shirts vary more than coats, so it's unlikely that the amount of visible cuff will remain precisely constant for a single shirt-coat combination, let alone across a wardrobe.

[psquare]

@couch and @bepmep:

Thank you for the detailed illustrations and contextual explanations. I see what you mean by the base of the thumb now.