Hats - true bespoke

[storeynicholas]

Patey's ceremonial and hard hats take months to make with all the processes of layering involved and hence it costs a lot. I think if they did soft felt, it would be cheaper but since they don't seem to make soft felt hats (much), there would likely be a hefty surcharge in it...

That's rather like Cortez's wild surmise; just ask them!!
NJS

[ScholarsInk]

Even if James Lock are not true bespoke, can you commission a hat from them that is of a style of your own choosing, or do they only produce the models on display at their site and storefront?

I am of the impression that you will be obliged to choose from the models they have on display. You might be able to order a color felt if they have it. Lock can also block and shape the hat the way you want but I am pretty sure they do not do one off custom orders.

Cheers

Michael

They do take ordcers but they are actually made by Patey.
NJS

Are Lock's rtw hard hats also made by Patey?

[JLibourel]

I bought several bespoke hats from Baron's California Hats located in Burbank, California about 8 years ago. The price was then around $150 for a fedora from rabbit fur felt and $180 for a more structured hat like a homburg or bowler. I think the prices have gone up appreciably since then. Other options included beaver felt (about $200 more than rabbit) or a rabbit-beaver blend, which split the difference.

Frankly, I am not as keen on bespoke hats as I am for some other garments. Hats are subtle. If they aren't quite right, they are emphatically not right! Two of the custom made hats from Baron's rank among my favorites. The other has been relegated to being a rain hat. My dissatisfaction with the later was entirely my fault as a result of design specifications, not the maker's. In brief, I would rather see how a finished hat looked on me in a mirror before buying than going the custom route again.

[Etutee]

Are there any hatters left anywhere, and I mean anywhere in the world, who offer a fully customisable and bespoke service? Measurements taken precisely for the customer's head, materials chosen by the customer from a vast range of options, all the dimensions and stylistic details chosen by the customer, and the entire product 100% hand-made?

Well this is a detailed topic and I am not sure how much detail on this you want or whether you are even considering it now. Anyway, I will answer so that it can be used for future references in case other members want to know

I had the privilege of using many hatters (true bespoke by all your definition as described) in US and few options in Italy and England. After some 8-10 bespoke hats I can safely say that Italy or esp. UK are no where even close to US when it comes to felt hats save the exception of homburgs perhaps. I don't know your location but if you are in US you are in luck compared to England where the hatters’ state is a sorry one.

I have used bespoke through Herbert Johnson, Cervo in Italy (through worth & worth), Optimo, Art Fawcett and Gary White plus am considering two more Adventure built or Penman hats. The last two are HIGHLY specialized so I will leave them out for the generic discussion.

First I would like to clarify something that a hat or anything else can be machine made completely and still be bespoke, that has nothing to do with it. When it comes to hats I am convinced that there is very minimal difference between true handmade hats versus hand finished ones, at least when it comes to performance that is. Why do you want a handmade hat? You honestly have to ask yourself this question. Is it regards to any special fit issue or styling issue or something else? I say this because 99% of the fit and style issues can easily be solved with a master hatters attention and they don’t exactly have to be true “handmade”.

One of the best examples of this is Optimo hats of Chicago. For all intensive purposes they are one of the best of hatters anywhere in the world. With the exception of Topper or a Derby (neither of which are felt) there isn’t a thing in which Optimo do not excel at. However, strictly speaking they are not handmade hats. Yet you would be hard pressed to find a finer hat anywhere in the world and in some areas they are completely a league of their own, i.e. hatbands and bows. Vintage or current no one can compare them in that area. I can explain in detail why I am saying this but for the time being I will leave it at that. They are VERY pricey though and certainly not for a casual hat wearer. RTW starts at $400 and custom around $500 I think. If you are in their Chicago shop or catch Graham on a trunk show measurements are not an issue either. http://www.optimohats.com/

One thing I should note that there maybe hatters outside US whose work is equal or superior to optimo but so far I have not seen many examples of that. Nevertheless the possibility is out there.

Then there is Art Fawcett, whose name has been mentioned. If you are in US but cannot get to the hatter physically his process is more bespoke / custom as he ships you the actual conformer for your head shape and then you dictate every possible thing you can think of. I am awaiting my delivery from him but can assure you he is every bit first rate so far. There are tons of satisfied customers that I know of and all speak highly of him. His specialty is fedoras / trilby or straw from 20-50s but will be happy to do other things for you except western hats or Indiana Jones style fedora. His prices are much lower than Optimo but the final product is on the same world class level. His felts are from Winchester in US which is about as good of a felt you are going to get anywhere especially beaver. Save for a few Portuguese rabbit felt makers that can alter the density to your liking, Winchester is about as good as it gets for most felts. http://www.vintagesilhouettes.com/

If you are REALLY into the detail you can commission your own felt from Winchester but it will take time and money.

Additionally there is Gary white in Boston who is a much less known hatter. I have a hat from him in beaver and it is “handmade” as far as anyone can tell. However, his hats are quite rigid and stiff with certain other traits. That is not a bad thing in anyway just that I prefer soft hats with“floppiness” to them. He is true bespoke also and prices are from $400 I think.

Another two options in US are Adventure built hats or Steve Delk and John Penman of Penman Hats. They are true “handmade” hats if that is what you are looking for whatever reason. Both of them specialize in Indiana Jones type “outdoor” fedoras and for that are Excellent. Adventure Built hats made the hat for Indy 4 movie (if you are into that type of thing) so there is an intense demand for their hats within known circles and prices are Very High.
For US http://www.adventurebilthats.com/
For EU http://www.adventurebiltdeluxe.com/

John Penman is considerably cheaper and honestly for other than Indiana Jones type hats I recommend him over Adventure built hats. http://www.penmanhats.com/

There is a lot more to this discussion but without specifically knowing what you are looking for its hard to go into details
Cheers

P.S As I said I tried Cervo and Herbert Johnson for custom also but that is for another day…

[le.gentleman]

Dear Etutee,

Thanks for this really valueable information on bespoke hats! Do you have more information on the Portuguese felt makers? Recently, I watched a great documentary about a bespoke hat maker in Austria who even makes his own felt from scratch - you rarely find that nowadays. Here you can find a trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/v/21j-GanwwDA&hl=de&fs=1

Something that irritated me a little bit though, was one of your expressions: "For all intensive purposes they are IT of hatters anywhere in the world. Period!". Without a doubt you have used quite a few bespoke hatters nevertheless speaking in such absolute terms seems a little over the top to me. Maybe I should mention that not being American myself it was always very funny to see how often superlatives are used in the US. For example , when I went to the grocery store I couldn't just buy strawberries - no of course those were "world famous" strawberries from x,y,z - a place I had never heard before. Or when we went to an air show people talked about the "world famous" blue angles although maybe 5% in Europe know what they are. When I find something "interesting" in the true meaning of the word, Midwesterners assume I consider it to be horrible (which is absolutely not the case)... Hence, I understand that sometimes one has to exaggerate quite a bit and state that something is the world greatest product in order to make clear it is indeed a very good product because if one just says it's very good people think it's purely mediocre.

However, chances are there are some great hatters out there you might not have come across yet which are maybe even better in some respects than Optimo hats.
Please don't feel offended by me saying that, I know you brought in brought in some relative terms later in the text - it's merely some food for thought.

Are there any hatters left anywhere, and I mean anywhere in the world, who offer a fully customisable and bespoke service? Measurements taken precisely for the customer's head, materials chosen by the customer from a vast range of options, all the dimensions and stylistic details chosen by the customer, and the entire product 100% hand-made?

Well this is a detailed topic and I am not sure how much detail on this you want or whether you are even considering it now. Anyway, I will answer so that it can be used for future references in case other members want to know

I had the privilege of using many hatters (true bespoke by all your definition as described) in US and few options in Italy and England. After some 8-10 bespoke hats I can safely say that Italy or esp. UK are no where even close to US when it comes to felt hats save the exception of homburgs perhaps. I don't know your location but if you are in US you are in luck compared to England where the hatters’ state is a sorry one.

I have used bespoke through Herbert Johnson, Cervo in Italy (through worth & worth), Optimo, Art Fawcett and Gary White plus am considering two more Adventure built or Penman hats. The last two are HIGHLY specialized so I will leave them out for the generic discussion.

First I would like to clarify something that a hat or anything else can be machine made completely and still be bespoke, that has nothing to do with it. When it comes to hats I am convinced that there is very minimal difference between true handmade hats versus hand finished ones, at least when it comes to performance that is. Why do you want a handmade hat? You honestly have to ask yourself this question. Is it regards to any special fit issue or styling issue or something else? I say this because 99% of the fit and style issues can easily be solved with a master hatters attention and they don’t exactly have to be true “handmade”.

One of the best examples of this is Optimo hats of Chicago. For all intensive purposes they are IT of hatters anywhere in the world. Period! With the exception of Topper or a Derby (neither of which are felt) there isn’t a thing in which Optimo do not excel at. However, strictly speaking they are not handmade hats. Yet you would be hard pressed to find a finer hat anywhere in the world and in some areas they are completely a league of their own, i.e. hatbands and bows. Vintage or current no one can compare them in that area. I can explain in detail why I am saying this but for the time being I will leave it at that. They are VERY pricey though and certainly not for a casual hat wearer. RTW starts at $400 and custom around $500 I think. If you are in their Chicago shop or catch Graham on a trunk show measurements are not an issue either. http://www.optimohats.com/

Then there is Art Fawcett, whose name has been mentioned. If you are in US but cannot get to the hatter physically his process is more bespoke / custom as he ships you the actual conformer for your head shape and then you dictate every possible thing you can think of. I am awaiting my delivery from him but can assure you he is every bit first rate so far. There are tons of satisfied customers that I know of and all speak highly of him. His specialty is fedoras / trilby or straw from 20-50s but will be happy to do other things for you except western hats or Indiana Jones style fedora. His prices are much lower than Optimo but the final product is on the same world class level. His felts are from Winchester in US which is about as good of a felt you are going to get anywhere especially beaver. Save for a few Portuguese rabbit felt makers that can alter the density to your liking, Winchester is about as good as it gets for most felts. http://www.vintagesilhouettes.com/

If you are REALLY into the detail you can commission your own felt from Winchester but it will take time and money.

Additionally there is Gary white in Boston who is a much less known hatter. I have a hat from him in beaver and it is “handmade” as far as anyone can tell. However, his hats are quite rigid and stiff with certain other traits. That is not a bad thing in anyway just that I prefer soft hats with“floppiness” to them. He is true bespoke also and prices are from $400 I think.

Another two options in US are Adventure built hats or Steve Delk and John Penman of Penman Hats. They are true “handmade” hats if that is what you are looking for whatever reason. Both of them specialize in Indiana Jones type “outdoor” fedoras and for that are Excellent. Adventure Built hats made the hat for Indy 4 movie (if you are into that type of thing) so there is an intense demand for their hats within known circles and prices are Very High.
For US http://www.adventurebilthats.com/
For EU http://www.adventurebiltdeluxe.com/

John Penman is considerably cheaper and honestly for other than Indiana Jones type hats I recommend him over Adventure built hats. http://www.penmanhats.com/

There is a lot more to this discussion but without specifically knowing what you are looking for its hard to go into details
Cheers

P.S As I said I tried Cervo and Herbert Johnson for custom also but that is for another day…

[vonwotan]

Etutee,
Do you have contact information for Gary White? Is he in Boston or Buffalo/Rochester, NY? Perhaps I am confusing him with another hatter, or perhaps he moved?
Cheers

[Etutee]

Dear Etutee,


However, chances are there are some great hatters out there you might not have come across yet which are maybe even better in some respects than Optimo hats.
Please don't feel offended by me saying that, I know you brought in brought in some relative terms later in the text - it's merely some food for thought.

Yes, I actully should edit that perhaps as it sends a strong unwarrented message but I am certainly not offended. The reason why I wrote that was not based on my suggestions but dozens of hat collectors also who I have known over the years with every possible hat from any famous maker in the world. When it comes to hatmaking in general I genuinely feel Optimo is way UP there! I have not came across many hats that compete with theirs let alone are better than them. This is especially true for hatbands and bows as I mentioned earlier. In this case they are THE only known hatter of their kind.

But it is true that there may be hatters out there in world that I am (or many others in US are) not aware of.... that are on the same level or better than optimo but so far I have not seen any examples. Nevertheless you right the possibilty is always there. Actually, I encourage all our EU (and in other countries) members to post their experiences of hatters so we in US can also know about them and compare them with what we have seen so far.

However, today.... Borsalino, Herbert Johnson, Lock, Christy, Cervo and all these do not even deserve to be compared to optimo and some of the US hatters mentioned above.

P.S If you are in Germany Marc Kitter of adventure built is excellent in my opnion especially if you care for beaver fedoras but he is Very expensive.

Etutee,
Do you have contact information for Gary White? Is he in Boston or Buffalo/Rochester, NY? Perhaps I am confusing him with another hatter, or perhaps he moved?
Cheers

Yes actually he has a web site that was functional up to last week don't what happened but his ph# is 716-896-3722 if I recall correctly and he is in Boston.

[le.gentleman]

There are still quite a few hatmakers here in Germany. I wrote a little bit about Mr. Beermann in Hamburg earlier in this thread . have you ever had a had from him?
How would you say do Optimo Hats compare to vintage Pre WWII Hückel or Habig Hats? And how to present day ones from Tonak or Mayser?
Does optimo make their hatbands (I mean the material) or do they buy that?

Do you have any detailed pictures of Optimo hats?

I agree with you about Borsalino, Herbert Johnston, Lock and like - those are of pretty bad quality nowadays.

Marc Kitter is relatively speaking a novice to hat making and according to http://www.spiegel.de it's not even his full time job. I am sure that Mr. Beermann's hats are at least as good. However, I think it's fantastic that Delk and Kitter learned an old craft autodidacticly (well almost, they certainly got some tips from 90 year old hat makers).
For all German speakers: here is a little article about Kitter and Delk : http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/kino/0,1518,545797,00.html

and here the translation:
Indiana Jones
Raiders of the Lost Hat

The headwear that Harrison Ford will wear in “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull” is an international project. And the story of the creation of the felt hat is a tale of passion, honor and true friendship.

Marc Kitter first saw “Raiders of the Lost Ark” in 1989, on video. At the time the film was already eight years old and Marc just 13. It was love at first sight.

But it wasn’t Indy’s girlfriend Marion Ravenwood, played by Karen Allen, with whom Marc had fallen in love; neither was it the adventurous life of a Nazi-fighting archeologist, like most of the boys his age.

It was the hat that dazzled him. From that moment on, Marc started delivering newspapers in his southern Danish hometown of Tingley, 18 kilometers north of Flensburg [home of a great pilsner - ed.]. The Jyske Vestkysten, for half a year. Until he had saved enough money to travel with his parents to Hamburg, the big city, and buy a hat – just like the one Indiana Jones wore.

When the fourth installment in the series, “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull,” opens on May 22, Marc Kitter will be the first one to see the film. And again he’ll mainly be paying attention to the hat. Because the hat that Harrison Ford and his stunt doubles will wear were made by Kitter. At least half of them. The other half were made by his best friend, Steve Delk.

Delk is 57 years old and lives in Mississippi. When he speaks, one hears the cotton in his deep voice. Delk’s Southern accent is distinctive, the vowels long, the flow of speech slow, like the great river that gave its name to the state.

He saw “Raiders of the Lost Ark” for the first time in 1996 [!? – ed.], also on video, like Kitter.
“I couldn’t go to the cinema back then. We had small children, there was no time for the movies,” he says. And exactly like Kitter he couldn’t take his eyes off the felt hat on Harrison Ford’s head. At the time Delk was a furniture maker. Today, he is a hat maker.

They met each other in Club Obi-Wan. That’s the name of the nightclub in which the opening scene of the second part of the series, “Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom,” takes place – Steven Spielberg pays homage to his “Star Wars” saga [sic – ed.] by naming the club after the instructor of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Club Obi-Wan is also the name of an Internet forum, in which Indiana Jones’ gear is discussed: the leather jacket, the bullwhip, the revolver, the holster – and, yes, the hat.

It’s no wonder that the two got on so well from the beginning. “We spent countless hours on the telephone and wrote thousands of emails discussing the hat,” says Kitter. “It sounded somewhat like this: ‘You think the ribbon is still a millimeter too narrow? Maybe, but the brim could be at least two millimeters wider…,” he adds with a trace of self-mockery.

The bad copy of the Indiana Jones hat that Kitter purchased with his newspaper money didn’t really satisfy him for long.

And Delk also searched and searched for the perfect hat. “I spent $7,500 on hats,” he says. Finding an original hat had become impossible. Richard Swales, who in 1981 made the hat for “Raiders of the Lost Ark,” had retired. The London company for whom he had worked, Herbert Johnson, was by that time making hats by machine – not an option for someone who wanted exactly the kind of hat that hat makers had made in their workshops in the 1930s. And the old blocks, which Swales had once used to make his legendary hat, had disappeared without a trace.

Kitter and Delk thus began to experiment on their own. They bought old hats on ebay, took them apart, reformed them and sewed them back together. It finally became too much for Delk. It became clear to him. If he wants this exact hat, then he’s going to have to make it himself.
In the Library of Congress in Washington D. C. he found an old book, “Scientific Hat Making.”
For Delk and Kitter, it became the bible. Delk worked on the block for the hat for ten months.
“Hey, I was a furniture maker,” he says. “I figured I could make anything out of wood.”

He then made a block for himself and one for his friend Marc. But that’s just the beginning of the story. Kitter and Delk delved into magazines from museums in order to study old hats. They called old hat makers who today are over 90 years old. Kitter in Europe, Delk in America. “Some of them were really happy for the chance to speak to someone about their work,” says Kitter. Hat-making is a kind of secret science. Trade secrets and tricks were never written down since a competitor could have used them to make hats just as good. “But now, at the end of the lives, some were very happy to pass that knowledge on and not take it with them to their graves.”

Delk finally made a hat he was happy with. And he presented it on the Internet. “The next thing I knew, hundreds of people wanted to buy this hat,” he says, “but I wasn’t a hat maker. I was a carpenter.”

So he started spending his evenings in his hat workshop. For friends, fans and even strangers, he formed old hats on his new block until they looked exactly like the “Raiders” hat. And he made a whole lot of new ones. At first he earned just enough to cover the manufacturing costs plus shipping. After a few months he called Kitter. “Marc, I can’t keep doing this on my own. Would you like to join me?“

“I was moved,” Kitter remembers. He knew that if he agreed, every second of his free time would be taken up. “You know what,” his wife Isabell said encouragingly, “You’re on the computer all the time anyway looking at hats. If you can earn money with it, that’s even better!”

Since then, Kitter, who in his real life studied business administration, has worked during the day as a buyer for a large tool supplier in Lower Saxony. And evenings and weekends he makes hats.
In order not to compete directly with his friend Steve Delk, he has specialized in the Deluxe Edition [my hat! – ed.].

While they both sell their product under the same name, Adventurebilt, Kitter’s hats are a bit more expensive. “I found a felt supplier who sells very high-quality felt,” he says, explaining the price difference. “He mixes the color specially and applies an extra layer of water protection.” Delk’s hats are also high-quality, however. They both use pure beaver felt. “Hare or rabbit hair is too thick,“ says Kitter. “Only beaver hair is fine enough.“

The raw hat bodies are delivered by the felt maker. The unformed cone is steamed and formed on the block. It is then artificially aged through various means in order to avoid eventual deformations. And then you have to iron. “The more you iron, the better that hat will be,” reveals Delk. Sandpapier provides the final finish and then the sweatband is sewn on and the ribbon attached. “I hate sewing sweatbands on,” Delk admits. That’s why he now employs his nephew to handle the tough work. At the end of the process, he holds in his hands a hat that could not have been made better by a hat maker from the 1930s.

Kitter and Delk have long enjoyed a certain reputation at Club Obi-Wan. They are both known as perfectionists and excellent hat makers. As the fourth installment of the Indiana Jones series was announced, the guessing began: Who would supply the hat? Then, a few days before the start of principle photography, Peter Botwright, a manufacturer of Indy leather jackets, called. The next day he was to meet Bernie Pollack, the costume designer (and brother of director Sydney Pollack) – and he still hadn’t found a hat. Should he give Pollack their addresses?

“We then made a gentleman’s agreement,” says Delk. “In case I get the job, Marc would make half of the hats. And if he got the job, I would make half of the hats.” Pollack called Delk the next day. “But only because there’s just a two-hour time difference between Los Angeles and Mississippi, and not six like Europe,” Delk explains. He ordered two dozen hats and Delk and Kitter began to work night and day.

“We were only able to deliver the last ones after filming had begun,” Kitter recalls. In total they made 48 hats fro “Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull”: “Nine for Ford, quite a number for his stunt doubles and a few extras for Steven Spielberg, who wanted some to hand out to friends as gifts.”

What kind of hat will gracing Harrison Ford’s skull in “Kingdom of the Crystal Skull”? “A cross between the ‘Raiders’ hat and the one Indy wore in “The Last Crusade,” reveals Delk. For real fans the only real hat is the “Raiders” hat. Ninety-nine percent of the hats that he and Kitter make to order are “Raiders” hats. “But Pollack didn’t like it,” he grumbles. “So we had to compromise.”

Both friends wear “Raiders” hats privately. “I’ve never had time to make myself a hat,” says Delk. “So I wear a hat that Marc gave me. Either that one or an old original Stetson from the Second World War era.”

Steve Delk hasn’t had time for the past four years, since he started his hat business. And it’s been nothing compared to the storm that will hit Delk and Kitter once “Crystal Skull” hits theaters. Delk sees all the hubbub with Southern aplomb. A few days ago the New York Times asked him for an interview. “I don’t think I want to speak to them at all,” he drawls. “I have enough publicity.”

His priorities lie elsewhere. “The best thing is, one day my grandchildren will see the film and say: Grandpa made that hat!”

“Age-wise, Steve could be my father,“ says Kitter about Delk. “But he’s my best friend.

“Marc is the best friend that I’ve ever had,“ says Delk about Kitter.

They’ve never met each other in person. It would be a long journey. And Delk has a fear of flying. “When I go to Europe, then in a boat!” he says.

The film premiere would be a good opportunity for their first meeting. But Bernie Pollack hasn’t sent any tickets for Hollywood.

“I’ll probably see the film in Copenhagen,” Kitter says vaguely. And Delk? “I definitely have to see the film twice. I know the first time I’ll only be able to pay attention to the hat. But I also want to know what the story’s about.”

Dear Etutee,


However, chances are there are some great hatters out there you might not have come across yet which are maybe even better in some respects than Optimo hats.
Please don't feel offended by me saying that, I know you brought in brought in some relative terms later in the text - it's merely some food for thought.

Yes, I actully should edit that perhaps as it sends a strong unwarrented message but I am certainly not offended. The reason why I wrote that was not based on my suggestions but dozens of hat collectors also who I have known over the years with every possible hat from any famous maker in the world. When it comes to hatmaking in general I genuinely feel Optimo is way UP there! I have not came across many hats that compete with theirs let alone are better than them. This is especially true for hatbands and bows as I mentioned earlier. In this case they are THE only known hatter of their kind.

But it is true that there may be hatters out there in world that I am (or many others in US are) not aware of.... that are on the same level or better than optimo but so far I have not seen any examples. Nevertheless you right the possibilty is always there. Actually, I encourage all our EU (and in other countries) members to post their experiences of hatters so we in US can also know about them and compare them with what we have seen so far.

However, today.... Borsalino, Herbert Johnson, Lock, Christy, Cervo and all these do not even deserve to be compared to optimo and some of the US hatters mentioned above.

P.S If you are in Germany Marc Kitter of adventure built is excellent in my opnion especially if you care for beaver fedoras but he is Very expensive.

Etutee,
Do you have contact information for Gary White? Is he in Boston or Buffalo/Rochester, NY? Perhaps I am confusing him with another hatter, or perhaps he moved?
Cheers

Yes actually he has a web site that was functional up to last week don't what happened but his ph# is 716-896-3722 if I recall correctly and he is in Boston.

[Etutee]

There are still quite a few hatmakers here in Germany. I wrote a little bit about Mr. Beermann in Hamburg earlier in this thread . have you ever had a had from him?

yes actually he is truly unique in that way if he makes his own felt. There are NO hatters in US like this or have been around for a while. Unfortunately I never had a chance of inspecting his hats.

How would you say do Optimo Hats compare to vintage Pre WWII Hückel or Habig Hats? And how to present day ones from Tonak or Mayser?

Well the vintage comparison is not a fair one as it is a totally different time period with a different industry standard and certainly the availability of materials is vastly different. Nevertheless purely for the sake of discussion vintage habig hats I have seen (very few) are thick dense felt that was prevalent at the time. Optimo hats today have all the same elements that you will find in most vintage hats such as hand sewn liners, excellent ribbon and bows and if the hat is bound it is superbly well done. But to me all these things are secondary compared to the quality of felt. Optimo felts are truly great (especially recent years) in this regard. They are like Borsalino light weight Borsalino felts from 60s or earlier. Honestly I have rarely seen any hatter today whose hats have this "dense" of a felt. Vintage hats certainly have great felts but that is not a fair comparison as I said above. Vintage Habig hats are like my Gary White bespoke hat.... slightly rigid with a substantial body to them. In my opinion, they were masters of velour and suede finish and really excelled in that. Some of the Huckle felts I saw were certainly jaw dropping.

As far as modem hats of Tonak or Mayser are concerned, we in US rarely if ever get these hats. I had a chance to see a modern or relatively new Mayser hat and while it was decent it was not any better than a good company produced hat here like Biltmore for example with some finishes are better than modern Borsalinos. But the felt was certainly not like vintage or Optimo's and to compare them to Optimo is just not fair. Keep in mind that Tonak or Mayser use rabbit felts while optimo uses a strange nutria blend beaver or pure beaver. These are two very different types of felts and not exactly comparable. Also Optimo hats are MUCH more than Tonak and Mayser hats.

Part of the problem is that when these hats get to US they are likely made for that batch as opposed to what you can buy in Germany. Tonak for example often uses Czech felts I think which aren’t exactly the best.

If don’t believe me you can ask that same question at Fedora Lounge if you like. Ask the members who own both types of hats (modern Tonak/Mayser) as to how they compare with Optimo’s and see what they say.

Does optimo make their hatbands (I mean the material) or do they buy that?

Lol! No, Optimo does not make the grosgrain ribbon if that is what you meant. No hatter in US makes their own ribbon. If you know some in EU who are like this…. Please do share as it is RARE. But why would you do that? That has never been part of a hatters job no matter how far back you go.

Do you have any detailed pictures of Optimo hats?

Mine was custom so it is different than RTW as there was no leather sweatband in it etc. I gave it to my friend and will see if I can get some pictures. But if you are interested in pictures of Optimo hats there are tons of them on internet.

Marc Kitter is relatively speaking a novice to hat making and according to http://www.spiegel.de it's not even his full time job. I am sure that Mr. Beermann's hats are at least as good.

That is actually kind of sad that these “newbies” are doing more than what generations old hatters can. Take any old hat firm and you cannot possibly compare them to this younger generation of hatters may that be Stetson or Dobbs in US or Borsalino, Lock, Cervo etc in EU.

BTW if you can show me how Beerman’s hats are equal or better than Marc Kitter’s I would be very grateful to you. I know many Indiana Jones fans that are adamant at the fact that he is producing the best hats in Germany at the moment consistently.
I have only seen Steve Delk’s hats and his hats are so far ahead in quality from RTW makers that it is not even funny…

P.S it may seem like I am die hard fan of Optimo but I am really not. I just want them to get the credit where its really deserved. I think Optimo is going insane with their prices and at the rate they are going..... they will soon leave behind a huge number of fans who actually appreciate their hats rather than buy a "label"

[le.gentleman]

Thanks for your detailed answers Etutee!

With regard to felt quality it appears to me that both, Optimo and adventurebuilt deluxe use felts from Feltros Portugueses S.A. (FEPSA) from São João da Madeira in Portugal. The hats in the in the new movie "Public Enemies" were made by Optimo and for Johnny Depp's hat they specifically created a "50X Black Rubby" felt accordding to Ricardo Figueiredo of Fepsa. Since I can speak some Portuguese, I'll have to get in touch with them and ask what their conditions for a bespoke felt are etc. Apparently, Mr. Kitter had to take a minimin order of 50 bespoke felts which are 30% denser than regular FEPSA felts and that's as dense as FESPA can produce it.
From what I read it seems to me that FEPSA deserves praise when it comes to the felt quality, although the makers also improve the quality and hence should also be praised. E.g. Mr. Kitter pounces the felt with 2000 grit sandpaper in order to get a very smooth surface which looks very luxurious. That's of course a lot of work that goes into it but every hatmaker should be able to buy FEPSA felts. However, Ricardo Figueiredo also says that Graham Thompson from Optimo is an exceptional hatter.

If Optimo does not make their own grosgrain ribbon then they are simply doing a great job in finding good sources for grosgrain ribbon. Others might do that as well, however apparently not too many are doing that right now otherwise Optimo would not stand out so much. Of course Optimo has to make the ribbon into a great hatband which they deserve 100% credit for!

Definitely, I'll try to find some more information at the fedoralounge and will also get in touch with Marc Kitter...

Thanks again for your information!

[AndyM]

I just wanted to express my appreciation of Etutee and le.gentleman for such detailed and informative postings! Discussion at this level is so rare and is one of the reasons I wanted to join the London Lounge. This is my first post so thank you to Michael for accepting me and ensuring I could log on! Also a very big thank you to all members, I have learned so much from reading your posts.

I am a regular hat wearer although I have difficulty in finding hats that fit in the styles I like so I have been considering ordering from Art Fawcett. On the subject of ribbon I see that Mr Fawcett sources vintage ribbon as he believes that changes in the manufacturing process mean that modern ribbon does not shape as well. I would be interested to hear any comments on this.

Also I recall that Michael was trying to arrange a bespoke hat service for members, is there any news on that?

Best wishes,
AndyM

[alden]

Also I recall that Michael was trying to arrange a bespoke hat service for members, is there any news on that?

We are making hand sewn bespoke caps at the moment in heavy linen and tweed.

The second prototype of an Alden hat should be ready this Fall. I hope to post pictures at that time.

I have to second Etutee's endorsement of Optimo and I have tried for years to get Graham over to Europe. In the meantime I found a great hatmaker in France who has a lot of talent. Stay tuned for more in September.

Welcome to the LL, Andy

Cheers

Michael

[Etutee]

With regard to felt quality it appears to me that both, Optimo and adventurebuilt deluxe use felts from Feltros Portugueses S.A. (FEPSA) from São João da Madeira in Portugal.

Yes this is correct. Fepsa was the name I was looking for when I mentioned them a few posts above. They compete with winchester and what a competition is that! Fepsa make stunning felts in my opnion especially for that soft dense feel.

I am a regular hat wearer although I have difficulty in finding hats that fit in the styles I like so I have been considering ordering from Art Fawcett.

welcome to the forum andy. First and foremost you need to know what type of hat you want and then choose a hatter like you would a tailor. If you want a collapsible silk topper (for whatever reason) I would not recommend Art in that case But If you are in US, you are in luck as it is a wonderful time to be for hat lovers in US with many interesting options available.

Almost all of US custom hatters will ship internationally so that is not a problem for people outside US also except you may not be able to get the full advantage. I think Art still ships his conformer internationally to his customers but the charge is higher.

If you are willing to spend $250 or more you have no excuse to buy a factory made hat unless it fits you perfectly, you like a perticluar shape / style or just want instant gratification.

If you are interested in Art's work you will find many pictures and happy customers on the forums.

[couch]

I am a regular hat wearer although I have difficulty in finding hats that fit in the styles I like so I have been considering ordering from Art Fawcett. On the subject of ribbon I see that Mr Fawcett sources vintage ribbon as he believes that changes in the manufacturing process mean that modern ribbon does not shape as well. I would be interested to hear any comments on this.
AndyM

Art cleaned and reblocked for me a NOS 1934 dove-gray Borsalino Triunfo that I had purchased from some Bulgarian sellers (the sweatband was stamped with an elegant old store logo from Sofia). Thanks are due to dopey for alerting me to them. Art and I consulted about the ribbon (the original was not what most stylish western Europeans would have worn--black, very thin, and a bit creased, as was the hat, from inadequate packing) and we agreed on a vintage graphite-gray ribbon. It's lovely ribbon, but the spool had apparently once been stored so that one edge had received considerable light exposure. Some portions of the ribbon showed slight fading and color shifting (to mauve-ish) at the edge bead, which I could see on the test photo Art e-mailed me. I called it to his attention, and he was able to select sections of the ribbon with minimal fading and set that edge against the brim so it is not apparent on the hat. The final result was superb, though even after using the conformateur the re-blocking was not quite large enough for comfort, so further adjustment was required. I mention these two points so that you can be more informed and alert as you proceed. If you use Art's conformateur, be sure and adjust it to the snugness or looseness that you want to feel in the finished hat. I had tightened it too much, thinking it was to be like a body measurement for a tailor. And with vintage ribbons, check carefully for uniformity of color or distortion caused by stretching (though Art will almost certainly have already culled any with such a defect). Art is tremendous to work with and dedicated to quality service, not to mention having a vast knowledge of historical hat styles and production. Art has also blocked a Montecristi Panama for me, sourced from Bob Weber at http://www.panamas.biz. If Art has a felt you like, it would be hard to go wrong there.

[AndyM]

Gentlemen, thank you for your welcome and advice, the US does seem to have most options for hat lovers, I live in England so will be dealing over the internet. I was considering Art Fawcett for a fedora rather than a top hat! I have also heard good things about Penman Hats. I will take Etutee's advice and do more research on the fedora lounge.

Michael, I am interested in the hand sewn bespoke caps, I cannot find the posting about these, please can you point me in the right direction? I will also be interested in any future hat or cap offerings. Only my second posting and my weakness is revealed - head wear!

My parents were friendly with the owner of a provincial bespoke tailors and outfitters (long gone) and when hat wearing declined he absolutely refused to see any sales representative who walked into his shop hatless, virtually all the suppliers issued their sales reps with hats in order to keep his business!

Best wishes,
Andy