English Suit styles?

[Rowly]

Hi,
I am currently having my first tailored suit made. A J G Hardy worsted allsport.(7621) 3-button hacking style, outside ticket pocket, etc. I am 5' 10''...and slim...I wanted flat front trousers, but also wanted to look classic savile row english style..we agreed on 2 pleats ( enough to look trad bespoke), but still fairly flat fronted. I don't like wide thighs..and prefer a slim silouette.The trousers are beautifully made...but still a bit wide for me.. In future, should I ask for flat fronted...or are pleats required to give the classic english shape....and if so, what do I tell my taiolr in order to keep it as slim as possible.....Also, I have been told that with my shape, I can choose between 17 or 18 inch bottoms?
What are the design considerations in terms of classic aesthetic appeal?.....thanks, and glad to be back !!
Rowly

[dandylama]

you can also go for a single reverse pleat with cuffs as something in between double forward pleats and flat fronts but that seems to be a more italian look.

[Rowly]

This is the cloth, by the way...has anyone used it before...what are your thoughts?, thanks.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2484/368 ... b1.jpg?v=0

[DD MacDonald]

Rowly, the worsted alsport range is good stuff, fairly sober but well constructed. I've got a three piece suit made by Edwin DeBoise in 7600 whcih is a tan brown herringbine with a sublte orange and red windowpane. The suit is a great winter traveller - the ensemble is warm, the trousers can be worn with a jumper, the suit is not so bold as to draw comment in Frankfurt or Berlin and can easily be worn in London on a Friday, works in NY anytime. It's not truly splittable though, I find that the jacket doesn't really work as an odd jacket, the cloth is just too plain to really work with khakis, flannels or cords. Works with very light / stone colored khakis and jeans but I find jeans heavy to travel with. The cloth that you've chosen looks to have a bolder weave, I think that you'll love it.

If you were to do it again, I'd reccommend looking at the LL clothes - the Sicilian POW, a lighter version of the best of both (brown POW), is spot on in terms of being bold enough to wear as a an odd jacket and yet subtle enough to wear as a suit.

I'd caution about going too far with trimming down the trousers. SR hosues are just great at achieving a balanced look and you are very much advised to "follow the house shilouette" whcih will include the trousers. Buy slim trousers if you want based on your current thinking but know that the cloth is pretty long lived and can take abuse. Considering that you may be able to wear that suit over the next 20 years, frame your decisions on style in that context. Stove pipe trousers and skinny lapels come in an out but a well bladed jacket with fullish trousers never really goes out of style.

Who's making for you?

DDM

[Costi]

Dear Rowly,

What's worse than tight trousers is so-and-so trousers, that are neither here nor there. Well cut flat (or, rather, pleatless) trousers are not narrow on the thighs, either. If you do go for pleats, don't skimp on them. They are there for comfort and style: a trouser leg that starts narrow at the waist needs to be relatively straight, which ruins the line. If they start full at the waist (which shouldn't bee too low), then the trouser legs can become narrower towards the ankle, shaping the legs nicely. Here is an example of a full trouser with a flattering line on a tall and thin frame:

[alebrady]

What is everyones' thoughts on harmony between coat and trousers (thinking specifically of odd trousers not with a suit). For example, would a slim, elongating Huntsman type coat coordinate best with a slim, flat front trouser? I had always thought so but recently someone suggeted to me that because the skirt is so flared on a Huntsman coat, a fuller trouser leg would be best. I would have thought that a full, pleated trouser is going to look a little unbalanced with a particularly slim coat such as a Huntsman (even though the skirt is flared).

Any thoughts?

[MildlyConsumptiv]

Are Huntsman's jackets narrow? I have never heard this before.

What is everyones' thoughts on harmony between coat and trousers (thinking specifically of odd trousers not with a suit). For example, would a slim, elongating Huntsman type coat coordinate best with a slim, flat front trouser? I had always thought so but recently someone suggeted to me that because the skirt is so flared on a Huntsman coat, a fuller trouser leg would be best. I would have thought that a full, pleated trouser is going to look a little unbalanced with a particularly slim coat such as a Huntsman (even though the skirt is flared).

Any thoughts?

[Rowly]

Hi, thanks for your comments so far, this is exactly the feedback I am looking for. I want the suit to be correct and have the correct silhouette in the classic english style...but I don't want to look like a character from a period drama either. I am happy to have pleats if this is correct and necessary for the most pleasing aesthetic. However, as I am in good shape, and if flat fronted close fitting trousers look streamlined and elegant, whereas, pleats are a device to accommotade a more out of shape person...in other words a necessary evil....then that's what I'm trying to find out. I'm just not used to wearing trousers shaped like this...if it's the correct way..then I'm looking forward to being used to it....are you saying that the proper way is with pleats..even if you are slim etc?...I noticed Thomas Mahon stating on his blog that flat front is fine..but if you go for pleats, then get four forward pleats, or nothing. I chose two forward pleats thinking it a compromise...but the trousers have quite pronounced pleats, whereas I was expecting darts..( he gave me some technical explaination why they had to be this way,which I accepted). I also opted for plain bottoms, intending to edge the suit towards the city look, more than the country look...I'm wondering now should I have asked for turn-ups/cuffs? At the end of the day...I'm being as diligent as I can to get it right...so that I am happy to order more suits with confidence, going forward.
Have you any pics,DD, of your lovely 3-piece, which describes exactly the result I was looking for? I'm sorry not to be able to reveal the name of my tailor...I offered to help promote him on the net, but he asked me not to, as he is retiring soon...so I must respect that....Anyway...for future advice...to look classic savile row...and eventhough I'm in good shape ( 5' 10''...11.5st )....... what style should I stick to to achieve the best results?...and will this be consistent regardless of the cloth or pattern chosen? Thanks again..... this is so helpful..and all comments are greatly appreciated..
Rowly

[alebrady]

Are Huntsman's jackets narrow? I have never heard this before.

perhaps 'narrow' was not the most appropriate term, however, certainly think of a trim, fitted coat when thinking of Huntsman and less of a 'wide' hourglass figure. in fact, i believe they may self describe their cut as such.

[shredder]

Hi, thanks for your comments so far, this is exactly the feedback I am looking for. I want the suit to be correct and have the correct silhouette in the classic english style...but I don't want to look like a character from a period drama either. I am happy to have pleats if this is correct and necessary for the most pleasing aesthetic. However, as I am in good shape, and if flat fronted close fitting trousers look streamlined and elegant, whereas, pleats are a device to accommotade a more out of shape person...in other words a necessary evil....then that's what I'm trying to find out. I'm just not used to wearing trousers shaped like this...if it's the correct way..then I'm looking forward to being used to it....are you saying that the proper way is with pleats..even if you are slim etc?...I noticed Thomas Mahon stating on his blog that flat front is fine..but if you go for pleats, then get four forward pleats, or nothing. I chose two forward pleats thinking it a compromise...but the trousers have quite pronounced pleats, whereas I was expecting darts..( he gave me some technical explaination why they had to be this way,which I accepted). I also opted for plain bottoms, intending to edge the suit towards the city look, more than the country look...I'm wondering now should I have asked for turn-ups/cuffs? At the end of the day...I'm being as diligent as I can to get it right...so that I am happy to order more suits with confidence, going forward.
Have you any pics,DD, of your lovely 3-piece, which describes exactly the result I was looking for? I'm sorry not to be able to reveal the name of my tailor...I offered to help promote him on the net, but he asked me not to, as he is retiring soon...so I must respect that....Anyway...for future advice...to look classic savile row...and eventhough I'm in good shape ( 5' 10''...11.5st )....... what style should I stick to to achieve the best results?...and will this be consistent regardless of the cloth or pattern chosen? Thanks again..... this is so helpful..and all comments are greatly appreciated..
Rowly

My take is that you are mixing up correctness with mere stylistic preference. You can start by taking suggestions from others, but ultimately you will need to figure it out for yourself over a course of several pieces. By divorcing preference from correctness, you will reduce the risk of neurosis; this whole thing is meant to be fun, to be enjoyed. I would not take it too seriously. And, by the way, pleats are not darts; my plain front trous have darts but they are plain front nonetheless.

Also, you may want to start looking for another tailor because there's not much that can be gained from investing in a new-ish relationship with someone who is about to retire soon. But then, one-offs can also be fun.

[Costi]

Rowley, pleats are not a necessary evil for corpulent figures. They are both a matter of style and a matter of comfort (without which style has no value). It is not even so much a matter of pleats or no pleats - it is a matter of full leg trousers with a conical line (whether pleated, flat front or darted) or straight and narrow, stove pipes. Just try a pair of full cut, high waisted, pleated trousers and see how you like them. Then you'll be able to make the right decisions for you, as shredder advises.

[Rowly]

Thanks Costi, That's helpful indeed. I have commissioned another suit with two forward pleats and an extra pair of trousers to be pleatless and flat fronted.
My tailor still insists on making the trousers full enough at the top to allow a tapering on the way down to finish with 18'' bottoms. He showed me how he brings them in at the waist using darts all around, so as to keep a nice shape. He still thinks a certain amount of fullness is required at the thigh, for the suit to look elegant.

I'm beginning to realize that this look may well be what I will come to appreciate...and it's a matter of getting on with it....I'm just not used to seeing myself like that.

My first suit is a JG Hardy alsport..and I wanted it more sharp and military style than elegant..( should I have asked for straight legs cut trim...or is that a no no?).

Anyway, I'm still learning and appreciate the advice from all of you. I am prepared to try it different ways with different suits until I get it right, and I may need to re-educate myself as to what looks best. This also applies to having the sleeves shorter than I am used to ..to show enough cuff.

If the trousers require a certain fullness regardless of pleats...then , perhaps I should have opted for four forward pleats, which seems to be the most classic?

I am so looking forward to getting to the point where I need only worry about my choice of cloth !!
Thanks again,
Rowly

[couch]

If the trousers require a certain fullness regardless of pleats...then , perhaps I should have opted for four forward pleats, which seems to be the most classic?

Pleats can be made with different depths (how far you can poke your finger into them just below the belt) and lengths (how far down the leg the pleat's crease extends) so the appropriate amount of fullness for your style and figuration could be accommodated with either two or four pleats (or indeed with darts, as your tailor suggests for the flat-fronted pair). Many quite traditional SR firms are happy to make trousers with two pleats (indeed, for some figurations they may prefer two pleats). While four pleats are more common historically, two pleats gives a slightly cleaner and less fussy look, so if you are used to more fitted flat-fronted pants you may find them to have a more "modern" effect. As shredder says, if your tailor knows his business (as it seems he does), this is more a style decision than one of correctness or technical requirements.

Pleats work like a bellows, so that the extra cloth needed for freedom of movement (climbing stairs, sitting, etc.) can fold neatly and trimly out of the way when you are standing still. My understanding (our sartorial historians may correct me here) of the original purpose for the secondary pleat in four-pleat trousers is to provide additional "give" between the side pocket and the main pleat, so that the main pleat can more easily hang in a straight line with the trouser crease rather than gaping or pulling open, and so that any tension tending to pull the pocket open will be dissipated. During periods when extremely full trousers were fashionable, the secondary pleat offered a site to accommodate the excess cloth that couldn't be fed into the primary pleat. For a slim person like yourself, however, it's very likely that a competent tailor can cut two-pleat trousers that will hang and perform perfectly well, so I'd suggest you try one of each over time and see which style you prefer.

The one thing (in my view) that you should absolutely avoid is skimpy pleats. Much better to have properly fitted flat-fronted pants than pleats that gap open. It sounds as though your tailor guided you well in this respect. The pleats should hang smoothly in a nearly straight line when standing and flow smoothly into the main crease of the trouser without causing that crease to be pulled outward beyond the center of the knee. Skimpy pleats create bulges in front of the hips and promote creasing and "noise" at the fork. Many RTW trousers in the '80s included skimpy pleats as a "style" feature with disastrous results.

[Costi]

My tailor still insists on making the trousers full enough at the top to allow a tapering on the way down to finish with 18'' bottoms. He showed me how he brings them in at the waist using darts all around, so as to keep a nice shape. He still thinks a certain amount of fullness is required at the thigh, for the suit to look elegant.

Bravo to your tailor! As I wrote before, you may well choose flat front (or rather flat front looking) trousers, using darts instead of pleats to ensure a snug fit at the waist and still allow for enough fulness in the thigh area.

I'm just not used to seeing myself like that.

You hit the nail on the head! That's why I suggested you try a pair from a tailor who can make them well (and yours sounds like a good one). Once you see how comfortable they are and how "at ease" you look in them, you'll start "seeing yourself" more like that. Just make sure they are high-waisted, not too long and the pleats are as generous as they need to be for the right look.

I am prepared to try it different ways with different suits until I get it right, and I may need to re-educate myself as to what looks best. This also applies to having the sleeves shorter than I am used to ..to show enough cuff.

Absolutely!

If the trousers require a certain fullness regardless of pleats...then , perhaps I should have opted for four forward pleats, which seems to be the most classic?

As couch explained above, it depends on the difference between your waist and thigh measures. Ask your tailor's advice, it sounds like he knows his job well.

I am so looking forward to getting to the point where I need only worry about my choice of cloth !!

Oh, I don't know about that... It's more of a continuous process and it should be enjoyable all along, rather than a race for the finish line. Each piece of cloth inspires a different approach – a tweed jacket, a fresco suit, a linen odd coat, a pair of cords… There is no universal template for all clothes in your wardrobe. And then there’s shirts and ties and shoes and…