sewing buttonholes for working sleeve buttons

[BirdofSydney]

Please forgive firstly my ignorance on the point and secondly my going slightly off-topic, but I wonder if any of the gentlemen here can inform me:

To what extent does the roll of a lapel (to the top button, centre button, halfway between) depend on the construction of a jacket, and to what extent is it due to the pressing?

As such, can a three-button jacket that rolls to the top button, assuming ideal conditions such as fabric weight and construction of buttonholes, be pressed to instead roll to the middle button (or the halfway point)? Obviously some jackets preclude this , by the shape of their lapels or the firmness of the pressing. And, of course, a good presser would be needed.

But, can it be done?

Regards,

Eden

[manton]

It depends to a great deal on the length of the colllar. A shorter collar "pulls" the lapel top upward, thus (perhaps counterintuitively) lengthening the roll. It is thus easier to lengthen a lapel roll thorough pressing than to shorten it, since doing the latter puts undue stress on the gorge seam, whereas doing the former does not. However, it might cause a little buckling or rippling somewhere along the lapel (most likely near the collar). And pressing will never accomplish over the long term the same good effects as cutting and sewing. So, with wear and exposure to humidity, etc., the likelihood is that the lapel roll will return to its original place.

[tteplitzmd]

I get only and exclusively, a 3 button jacket rolled to an inch or so below the top button----it has been a dscouraging and costly experience to find so many tailors unable or unwilling to do this on request. The placement of the buttons/holes and distance between the buttons is crucial------they usually deviate from the formula in a small way which gets magnified in the finished product.

[Leonard Logsdail]

a roll to between the top and middle button I do not find quie so difficult to understand, although I still feel any hole there that is not designed to be used spoils the look of the lapel.

As to construction, particularly with a bespoke jacket, pressing will be of no use whatsoever. The lapel will, after a dhort period of time, go back to it's original place.

Leonard

[RWS]

I get only and exclusively, a 3 button jacket rolled to an inch or so below the top button----it has been a dscouraging and costly experience to find so many tailors unable or unwilling to do this on request. The placement of the buttons/holes and distance between the buttons is crucial. . . .

This is very close to my own less-refined preference, which is for the lapel to roll to a place one-third or one-half the distance below the top button toward the middle button of a three-button coat.

Whom have you found, Terry, who executes this well? Any "magic words" to encourage a proper execution by a reluctant tailor? And, what distance do you request between buttons (I now think the standard distance perhaps should be that between the wearer's natural waist and the base of his sternum -- about four inches)?

[Matt Deckard]

I hope this has soemthing to do with the topic.

I had a bad experience with a made to measure suit that I had made several years back. I ordered a three button jacket with the lapel rolled to the top button and the jacket came as a two button. I was ignorant at the time and the store (The Alden Shop) told me that they could make it into a three buton jacket rolled to the top. I let them do their work and the jacket looked freakish.

Many three button suits that roll to the center button are made using a two button style patterns and it you look closely at the leading edge of the lapel you will see that the edge reverses where the lapel rolls. If you try to change where the lapel rolls it is in oposition with how the suit was built. Same goes for trying to make a three button roll to the center, it is noticible.

[Guest]

Sorry to pirate this thread (is that the term?), but can Leonard (or anyone else) enumerate the reasons I would choose a roll to the third button, second button, or in between?

[tteplitzmd]

RWS, I would have to get out a ruler, and will attend to it later in the week. Matt, I too, have had several tailors try to hustle me with the notion that the top third button is no problem, when they have really used a two button model, roll----it just doesn't work.

I started to pay attention to the 3 button roll in pre bespoke days: I liked J Press' model, then a company called Linette, which made made to measure for Chipp---I then tried to have bespoke emulations of the Linette model, with varying degrees of success. Sometimes Chipp bespoke was good, then the next time, it would be a two button model, with the top button added as an afterthought. At that point I went elsewhere.

Some years later I tried Winston/Chipp again for bespoke, showed them a jacket I wanted emulated, specified distance between the buttons, and the final product was thrown off by my being inattentive to placement of the middle button---if that is too high or low, game over!
Caveat emptor. I know believe only Eastern artisans will "copy" without manifesting some indignity at the request.