Full-legged trousers

[uppercase]

I must say that I am coming around to appreciate the appearance of a full cut tjrouser.

I recently bought a pair of RTW flannel trousers in about 12 ozs. with 4 reverse pleats in a full cut.

I've got to admit that they fit me better than any bespoke trousers that I have had made and only wish that my bespoke trousers looked half as good.

They approached the wonderful drape and line that I see in the old AA illustrations. I think that the combination of the heavier weight of the cloth, the 4 deep reverse pleats and full cut made the trousers look so good.

And the full cut was certainly more comfortable in the hips when sitting down, crossing the leg, standing up again, etc. than any narrow cut trouser.

Having said this, I don't know why a full cut trouser looks odd with a Neapolitan coat but it does; it seems that the Neapolitan cut demands a narrower and shorter length trouser leg.

Perhaps this is required to complete the 'Neapolitan' silhouette but it is curious that such a narrow, uncomfortable trouser is needed to accompany such a comfortable coat.

[alden]

Uppercase,

Your comments made me think of a shirtmaker in naples I used to visit. He was a client of Solito and always looked quite smart but he used to complain about the trousers in Naples. “They are torture devices”, he used to say, “Not one tailor makes a comfortable one!” He was right. One day I showed him what a trouser was supposed to look like, in all its ample splendor, and he gasped with envy.

When the Neapolitan silhouette is very close to the body, it is more challenging to wear a fully cut trouser. However a more ample, drape version can take one. If you go back to the picture of the “idealized drape” you will find a neat drape coat matched with a trouser on the full side. The extreme is the full blown scarecrow drape and Oxford bags, but this is not what we are after at all.



The other thing I should say is that in the idealized drape illustration you see a very smooth transition in the line from coat to trouser. One aspect of neapolitan style that I do not like is the interruption of this line. The coats are buttoned high and the trousers low. The resulting space between the two elements is very inelegant.

Cheers

Michael Alden

[mmkn2]

I recently bought a pair of RTW flannel trousers in about 12 ozs. with 4 reverse pleats in a full cut.

I've got to admit that they fit me better than any bespoke trousers that I have had made and only wish that my bespoke trousers looked half as good.

Uppercase,

As I am exploring bespoke trousers, I am curious as to who made the RTW and bespoke trousers?

As with Costi's previous post in this thread, pictures would be best.

- M

[jb]

Let me join with Michael and Costi in singing the praises of trousers cut full at the top with a nice line all the way down. They are comfortable and, when well-cut, do not appear sloppy.

Regards,
Joel

[Doug]

Anyone who needs persuading about the merits of full cut trousers should check out images of professional golfers from the 30s and 40s, both stills and action shots. Look at Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson. Here's a link to a photo of Hogan.


http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l? ... n%26sa%3DN[/url]

[uppercase]

The trousers were made by Brooks Bros., they are the Madison model, 4 reverse pleats, in flannel.

They just happen to fit me very well.

They are not perfection but they are the best I’ve been able to come up with: the pleats lie very flat in the stomach area, they do not pull open and remain closed, there's no (OK, not too much) rippling around the side waist area, the trouser leg is tubular and hardly seem to touch the leg: they hang straight down the front and back without interruption and the line is also clean on the inside of the leg up to the crotch so there is no jodhpur effect.


Downside is that the rise is not high enough.

I had to buy the trousers one size larger ( 36" vs. 34") than my proper waist size in order to get the pleats to lie flat, with no pulling open. (Fat ass).

I'm happy with these trousers for $125, much more so than with any bespoke trouser at 10X the cost, and, after numerous fittings, mediocre results.

The BB trouser is how I would like a trouser to look and how I would have it made if any tailor was up to the task!

I am all for RTW particularly when it fits me better than bespoke and at 10% of the cost.

Here's a shot from the Brooks catalogue.

[Cary Grant]

Uppercase,

Your comments made me think of a shirtmaker in naples I used to visit. He was a client of Solito and always looked quite smart but he used to complain about the trousers in Naples. “They are torture devices”, he used to say, “Not one tailor makes a comfortable one!” He was right. One day I showed him what a trouser was supposed to look like, in all its ample splendor, and he gasped with envy.

When the Neapolitan silhouette is very close to the body, it is more challenging to wear a fully cut trouser. However a more ample, drape version can take one. If you go back to the picture of the “idealized drape” you will find a neat drape coat matched with a trouser on the full side. The extreme is the full blown scarecrow drape and Oxford bags, but this is not what we are after at all.



The other thing I should say is that in the idealized drape illustration you see a very smooth transition in the line from coat to trouser. One aspect of neapolitan style that I do not like is the interruption of this line. The coats are buttoned high and the trousers low. The resulting space between the two elements is very inelegant.

Cheers

Michael Alden

Such a fine example!

I wonder about that in a twill or duck.

[Cary Grant]

The trousers were made by Brooks Bros., they are the Madison model, 4 reverse pleats, in flannel.

They just happen to fit me very well.

They are not perfection but they are the best I’ve been able to come up with: the pleats lie very flat in the stomach area, they do not pull open and remain closed, there's no (OK, not too much) rippling around the side waist area, the trouser leg is tubular and hardly seem to touch the leg: they hang straight down the front and back without interruption and the line is also clean on the inside of the leg up to the crotch so there is no jodhpur effect.


Downside is that the rise is not high enough.

I had to buy the trousers one size larger ( 36" vs. 34") than my proper waist size in order to get the pleats to lie flat, with no pulling open. (Fat ass).

I'm happy with these trousers for $125, much more so than with any bespoke trouser at 10X the cost, and, after numerous fittings, mediocre results.

The BB trouser is how I would like a trouser to look and how I would have it made if any tailor was up to the task!

I am all for RTW particularly when it fits me better than bespoke and at 10% of the cost.

Here's a shot from the Brooks catalogue.

Glad it fits you well-
However, those strike me more as "typical not slim" pleated trousers rather than "full leg" in the 30's sense.

You might look at the Balin trousers at Nordstroms. I think you'd find them quite similar in fit.

[mmkn2]

They just happen to fit me very well.

Thanks for posting this uppercase.

Do you (or others) find that bespoke suit trousers fit differently than odd trousers, even from the same maker? In principle it shouldn't, but is there a different mindset when making "odd" jackets and trousers than when making a whole suit?

- M

[Cary Grant]

Uppercase,

Michael- what's your guess as to the material here?

[alden]

Michael- what's your guess as to the material here?

It is intended to be "natural color gabardine."

But it could look a bit like the sand colored LL heavyweight linen.



Cheers

Michael

[iammatt]

I am going to be a bit of a contrarian on this one. My feeling is that a good pair of pants needs to fit the rump first, so the design of any pair is determined by the shape of a person's posterior. Since I think everybody dislikes baggy bottoms, the seat needs to fit pretty cleanly. Now, if the seat fits well, and you have a large, or medium, backside, then the front of the trousers looks best if it is a bit full, because you have good symmetry back and front. On the other hand, if you lack a rear end, a fuller front to the pant looks really off, and a better way to go is with a rather trimmer pant front. That is my opinion at least, and it has been confirmed, at least for me, in seeing rather tragic looks, both in pictures and in real life, of flat assed men in full pants, and more ample butted men in trousers which hug the body pretty closely. Both look like they are in danger of falling over.

[JDelage]

Do high rise trousers work if the person is *not* wearing a jacket? I understand their usefulness in a suit (and I suppose paired with an odd jacket), but otherwise, I find high rising trousers to give a very awkward and imbalance silhouette...

[Cary Grant]

Do high rise trousers work if the person is *not* wearing a jacket? I understand their usefulness in a suit (and I suppose paired with an odd jacket), but otherwise, I find high rising trousers to give a very awkward and imbalance silhouette...

I think they do if with the fish tail and braces.

[alden]

I am going to be a bit of a contrarian on this one. My feeling is that a good pair of pants needs to fit the rump first, so the design of any pair is determined by the shape of a person's posterior. Since I think everybody dislikes baggy bottoms, the seat needs to fit pretty cleanly. Now, if the seat fits well, and you have a large, or medium, backside, then the front of the trousers looks best if it is a bit full, because you have good symmetry back and front. On the other hand, if you lack a rear end, a fuller front to the pant looks really off, and a better way to go is with a rather trimmer pant front. That is my opinion at least, and it has been confirmed, at least for me, in seeing rather tragic looks, both in pictures and in real life, of flat assed men in full pants, and more ample butted men in trousers which hug the body pretty closely. Both look like they are in danger of falling over.

Matt

Au contraire, contrarian views are especially valued here.

The man with a flat rear end will require a shorter back rise. The man with a plumper one will need a longer back rise. If the trouser is cut properly and drapes as it should, they will both look perfectly well with a full front.

I think that poorly cut full trousers worn on the hip with a belt are atrocious. Higher rise trousers worn with braces can mask a bad cut a bit more. The trouser, suspended from above, drapes and in some way curtains our view of some of the problems.

The point is that badly cut trousers, whether they are full or close fitting, worn on the belt or with braces, look pretty sad. Most men would improve their dress greatly by investing in the services of a good trouser maker.

It all comes back to the key phrase regarding our tailor’s work, because good fitting trousers are a devil to do. And if a tailor is not up to the challenge, and few are anymore, then RTW trousers, if they are available in the fabric and cut required, can be an excellent option (as UC has described.)


Cheers

Michael