A 20 Oz Three Piece Lounge Suit

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

Sator
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Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:38 am

On the subject of the cross pollination between British and American tastes in dress Emily Post provides an interesting bit of insight:

If you would dress like a gentleman, you must do one of two things; either study the subject of a gentleman’s wardrobe until you are competent to pick out good suits from freaks and direct your misguided tailor, or, at least until your perceptions are trained, go to an English one. This latter method is the easiest, and, by all odds, the safest. It is not Anglomania but plain common sense to admit that, just as the Rue de la Paix in Paris is the fountainhead of fashions for women, Bond Street in London is the home of irreproachable clothes for men.

And yet, curiously enough, just as a woman shopping in Paris can buy frightful clothes—or the most beautiful; a man can in America buy the worst clothes in the world—and the best.

The ordinary run of English clothes may not be especially good, but they are, on the other hand, never bad; whereas American freak clothes are distortions like the reflections seen in the convex and concave mirrors of the amusement parks. But not even the leading tailors of Bond Street can excel the supremely good American tailor—whose clothes however are identical in every particular with those of London, and their right to be called “best” is for greater perfection of workmanship and fit. This last is a dangerous phrase; “fit” means perfect set and line, not plaster tightness.


Etiquette in society, in business, in politics and at home, by Emily Post (Mrs. Price Post); illustrated with private photographs and facsimiles of social forms.
PUBLISHED: New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1922.

Mendes and de la Haye in the book 20th Century Fashion, Thames & Hudson, London, 1999 write:

Lounges suits pointed the way of the business suits of the future and marked the growing informality of menswear in which North America took the lead. The English magazine the Tailor and Cutter acknowledged the significance of the US market and its special needs, but wrote disparagingly of 'Yankee swank' and the American preference for 'racy' clothes of the kind that an Englishman would consider suitable only for holiday or sports wear. Warned off the vulgar excesses of the 'freak American suit', Americans were advised to travel to the 'home of irreproachable clothes for men' and visit an English tailor.

Here is an example given of 'Yankee swank' and coats thought too racy for English tastes:

Image

Looser, easy-fittting trousers? Didn't the Duke of Windsor have his made in New York!

One can only wonder what the contemporary English thought of the illustrations found in American publications such as AA and Esquire in the 1920-30's. I really do wish people would try to track down equivalent English rival publications and fashion plates of that period for comparison.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum
Last edited by Sator on Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
storeynicholas

Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:48 am

One of the Duke's tailors in New York was H Harris - but even he was London trained. By the 1920s and 1930s, there were clear British fashion leaders, such as the Pow; Jack Buchanan, Noel Coward and many others - includingthe impeccable Duff Cooper - and there are plenty of photographs of them, which represent an excellent primary source of material.
NJS
masterfred
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Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:40 pm

The Duke's real objection to English trousers was that he wanted to wear them belted, not the brace version Scholte et al wanted to make for him. Harris accommodated the Duke's wish for full-cut pleated trousers made for wear with a belt.
storeynicholas

Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:47 pm

masterfred wrote:The Duke's real objection to English trousers was that he wanted to wear them belted, not the brace version Scholte et al wanted to make for him. Harris accommodated the Duke's wish for full-cut pleated trousers made for wear with a belt.
Thank you for the extra information, masterfred! Did the Duke have such trousers in lounge suit or others too?
NJS
masterfred
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Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:53 pm

I would think that all of his trousers, save perhaps evening clothes, were cut this way. All the pictures I've seen of him in casual attire show him wear belted sports trousers, often brightly colored.
storeynicholas

Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:04 pm

masterfred wrote:I would think that all of his trousers, save perhaps evening clothes, were cut this way. All the pictures I've seen of him in casual attire show him wear belted sports trousers, often brightly colored.
I noticed the sports' trousers but it interesting about the suits. Thank you again.
NJS
schneidergott
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Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:27 am

Sator: I found one little flaw in your new coat, and I'm surprised that you did not pay attention to this detail:
In any fashion plate of the second half of the 30's the stripes or dessins of the coats go straight. Like in this one:

Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11

To achieve this look the pattern has to be changed in the following way(images taken from an old german magazine called Rundschau):
First image shows a DB pattern from that era(1934):
Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11
This is the pattern manipulation:
Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11
And this is the result:
Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11
Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11
Image
By schneidergott at 2008-10-11

For anyone interested in the full details about how to achieve the original look of the 30's style, here is a pdf file: (images taken from an old german book called "Lehrbuch für Zuschneidekunst für Herrenbekleidung", System M. Müller & Sohn)
http://www.file-upload.net/member/downl ... t.pdf.html


Enjoy!

SG
DFR
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Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:33 pm

Very nice although a brave man to wear this in many mdern offices or homes!

I assume the trousers are fishtail back etc without back pocoets, button fly etc?
Sator
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:26 pm

Thank you SG for sharing that cutter insight with us.

Yes, the trousers are brace trousers with a high fish mouth back.

Today, I decide to brave it and wear the suit again as the predicted peak temperature was 23 C (73.4 F). The sun was out and it looked like it was going to be a warm day. Never mind, I thought. The Bedouin traditionally wear heavy woollen garments to shield themselves from the desert heat after all:

Image

Image

It wasn't long before my temperature gauge hit 23 C and then before long 32 C (89.6 F). The heat of the sun outdoors was intense.

One would have assumed a general meltdown would be inevitable, but far from it, I was a lot more comfortable and better shielded from the heat than one might suppose. In fact, overall it seemed only marginally warmer than a 9 Oz Minnis fresco. Admittedly, the indoor environment was typically overly air-conditioned and the three piece 20 Oz suit help keep me from freezing.

So with that I conclude that the idea that a 20 Oz three piece is somehow frightfully heavy and uncomfortable is a total myth. Even in 32 C heat it remained a pleasure to wear. I must try it in 35-40 C heat one day.

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Last edited by Sator on Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pvpatty
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:55 pm

What will those wonderful Bedouin teach us next? :)
Concordia
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:07 pm

Insulation is all well and good when the air temperature exceeds normal skin temperature-- especially if the insulator is loosely wrapped to let a lot of air flow about. A closely-tailored suit is unlikely to have the same effect, especially if the desired result is to get skin closer to the relatively cooler air.

Of course, if you can wear heavier suits in the warm weather, please do. They look great. Just don't think that everyone else will share your notion of physical comfort.
masterfred
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:42 pm

I agree with Concordia; if you can wear the sturdier heavycloths, do so. There's no doubt they tailor and hang better. If, unlike our host and Sator, you feel the heat very much, the weights being discussed will wilt you. I would saturate a 20 oz worsted fabric with sweat, and that's no exaggeration. Of course, your local climate will influence such things, but living somewhere hot and humid will make the heat-intolerant person miserable in clothes of such weight....and that's no myth.
carl browne
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:06 pm

IGentlemen, please educate me.

Is it really true that heavier cloths are not necessarily too warm? I live in Southern California (it's 80+ degrees outside today) and I'm constantly faced with the weight conundrum. My budget is not unlimited, so I really want my clothes to last. Conversely, I don't want to be miserable, and it's tough to be elegant when you're damp.

Brian Lishak at Richard Anderson (my tailor) wears jackets so heavy it's a wonder his knees don't buckle, and trousers fully capable of standing up of their on volition. He is a fountain of knowledge, has the presence to carry off anything, never has so much as a crease on him, and always looks supremely comfortable, even on hot days in Los Angeles. He tells me that some heavier cloths simply have a cool hand (meaning a hard worsted rather than a lofty tweed or woolen--I think). I don't want to disbelieve him, but I worry that this may be a display of British phlegm, which is a quality I sorely lack.

Carl
carl browne
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:09 pm

1000 pardons--

I see several of you did weigh in.
Sator
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Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:21 pm

Weave is very important to how warm a cloth runs. My 20 Oz cloth is 20% cashmere, 80% wool and is a fairly loose woven worsted. It is designed to run warm.

I am contemplating ordering a two piece lounge suit out of 22 Oz cavalry twill (unusual though that may be) for this southern hemisphere summer as I have noticed it runs as cold as ice. My 22 Oz cavalry twill trousers feel like they are literally made of steel when I put them on in winter.

On the other hand even light weight flannels eg puny 13 Oz ones wear warm.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum
Last edited by Sator on Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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