Black brogue

[storeynicholas]

'Brogue' derives from a Gaelic word, meaning 'shoe'. The punched holes and open lacing of the originals were designed to facilitate easy drainage in the bogs. Hence, away from their place of origin, they are seen as country shoes; because they had an original rustic utility (as well, with modifications, as a sporting one, for the Scottish game of golf). However, there is a formal black type of the ghillie brogue (a good example of which - from memory - complete with a silver buckle - is in the John Lobb B&W catalogue; not immediately to hand), which is a light 'dress' shoe; having open laces and punching and is worn with full Highland dress for all formal occasions (I cannot speak for the Irish tradition). Accordingly, there is a type of black brogue which does do duty as a formal shoe (although, according to an old saying - not with a kilt south of Wick). It occurs to me, from JMB's post, above, that the svelte 'austerity brogue' should properly be renamed the 'town wingtip or wingcap'. This would, at once, demonstrate a co-operation between nations in the evolution of the English language and enable us to leave the Celtic fringe peacefully to dance the night away, at the Highland Fling, in the real thing (maybe to the tune of Black Brogues in the Sunset) - especially if they happen to rejoice in a Highland name - such as Kilgour - properly pronounced - of course. We might note, along the way, that at Almack's rooms, established in St James's in 1765, Scotch reels were often danced; certainly down to 1813, when the French quadrille was introduced; so a type of brogue might, as part of national dress, have graced the sight of Brummell and Lady Jersey, at the 11pm functions, without demur.
NJS

[Costi]

Dear Marcelo,

My knowledge on the topic, which is a flattering overstatement , is that, since the rule has it that one should not CHOOSE to wear brown shoes in the evening (although the evening might well find one wearing brown shoes if one did not have time or reason to change, just as one continues to wear a morning suit into the evening and on in case of attending a social event that commences before 6 pm), perhaps a good excuse to wear black brogues would be when going out (where?) in the evening in the country. Where? - perhaps to visit friends, to have a drink at a village pub (?!) etc. I don't suppose one would wear a dinner suit for such an occasion - at least not these days. Excuse? - yes, as you quoted from AA, brogues are not evening wear. But then if we MUST find a place and a time for the black brogues - I simply followed the lead of the two elements that define these shoes: brogues (country) and black (evening - because formal or business is out with brogues). However, since black brogues are somehow outside "classic" rules, whatever that may be, I see no impediment to their being worn before 6 pm with grey or B&W tweeds, flannels etc.

[Costi]

Dear NCW,

I agree with you more than you agree with yourself: I believe it is ALL cultural (lato sensu) when it comes to dress, nothing intrinsically human about it - we are born naked after all. Avoiding to look fat is more cultural, if you think of it, than "breast pocket on the left": the modes brought fat and thin in favour or disfavour alternatively and continue to do so, with looking thin being in favour now, but there was a time (when ladies wore bustle dresses) when thin men wore waistcoats filled with oakum or something similar to make up for their lack of a respectable paunch.
As for the particulars of why I think brogues don't work with business suits, you mixed them up, shook them well and made a nice cocktail of them I meant full brogues, with their heavy decoration, don't work well on sleek town lasts and are usually made on more robust, country lasts; these, in turn, don't work well with the slender shape and restrained styling of a business suit. As for the smooth surface of a worsted, I wrote it didn't work well with the busy decoration and often grained leather of brogues. Of course this is cultural reasoning and not a fact of life, but tastes are entirely cultural.
I agree that the best thing to do "is to bend and remake the rules slowly, in the light of the genuine principles that are not fudged, treating the past as good, but not worrying when arguments that once seemed valid no longer justify the rule", but that implies and relies on knowing the rules and understanding their original logic. Often we will discover modern modes are not so much a matter of the the "arguments that once seemed valid no longer justify[ing] the rule" and therefore the fruit of a reevaluation and updating of the rules, but simply a matter of ignorance with regard to their existence. And it is not so much the "rules" I am interested in, but the logic behind them, the principles at work that generate them. Most rules are mere corollaries - the principles are those of good taste.
I don't see it as a matter of DEMANDING that others follow these "rules", but rather as a matter of developing a certain taste by learning and understanding why certain things "work" or "don't work"; such effort, though, is thwarted by the notion that "if [rules] do not occur to someone, it is hard to justify the need to introduce them". I think when someone discovers such rules, understands and evaluates the underlying principles and accepts them as valid, introducing the rules in daily life is perfectly natural. But one only sees what one knows...

[NCW]

As always, Costi, very well put. There is of course yet another line; namely that dividing the situations when we follow your apt reasoning, and those where outrage takes centre stage: I rather feel most of us would 'demand' that others follow some rules such as "no black brogues with white tie". If this dress, then why not black tie — surely many here would insist on no black brogues with black tie? Then where do we go? Informal is so broad, and merges into the categories below it, that it is clear we are following a dress code every minute. At some stage, tolerance starts to engage, as style takes over from the positively unbreakable rules.

[storeynicholas]

As always, Costi, very well put. There is of course yet another line; namely that dividing the situations when we follow your apt reasoning, and those where outrage takes centre stage: I rather feel most of us would 'demand' that others follow some rules such as "no black brogues with white tie". If this dress, then why not black tie — surely many here would insist on no black brogues with black tie? Then where do we go? Informal is so broad, and merges into the categories below it, that it is clear we are following a dress code every minute. At some stage, tolerance starts to engage, as style takes over from the positively unbreakable rules.

I've certainly seen black brogues with black tie (normally worn by those who see wearing black tie as quite a sufficient nod to the occasion without going to all the trouble and expense etc etc) - I fear that very few men these days go so far as to have proper evening shoes, unless they have a particular need, owing to regular use. However, it would seem very strange to see black brogues with white tie (especially of the clodhopper variety) - the whole edifice would crumble.
NJS

[RWS]

. . . . most of us would 'demand' that others follow some rules such as "no black brogues with white tie". If this dress, then why not black tie . . . .

I've certainly seen black brogues with black tie . . . .

I've seen trainers -- sneakers -- worn with black tie. And blue jeans. And button-down collars. All generally by men who've an idea that they've dressed badly but think it smart.

And what will it matter when sartorial elegance is deemed to be the velour sweatsuit with somebody else's name on it?

[storeynicholas]

. . . . most of us would 'demand' that others follow some rules such as "no black brogues with white tie". If this dress, then why not black tie . . . .

I've certainly seen black brogues with black tie . . . .

I've seen trainers -- sneakers -- worn with black tie. And blue jeans. And button-down collars. All generally by men who've an idea that they've dressed badly but think it smart.

And what will it matter when sartorial elegance is deemed to be the velour sweatsuit with somebody else's name on it?

RWS - As we ponder the interesting possibilities presented by this could you advise whether the ensemble comes with matching velour baseball cap?
NJS

[RWS]

But, of course! Worn rakishly backward.

[storeynicholas]

But, of course! Worn rakishly backward.

There's also the athwart option so the peak is down over one ear - but the trouble with this is that it gets in the way of the hoodie.
NJS.

[RWS]

Very good, NJS! I see that you, too, are a keen observer of the latest fashions among the rich and influential.

Now, all we've left to determine is whether the shade of lens need vary between daytime formal sunglasses and evening formal. Perhaps coppery for the former and dark green for the latter?

[storeynicholas]

Very good, NJS! I see that you, too, are a keen observer of the latest fashions among the rich and influential.

Now, all we've left to determine is whether the shade of lens need vary between daytime formal sunglasses and evening formal. Perhaps coppery for the former and dark green for the latter?

Some might favour the mirror-surfaced variety with big fasion house monogrammes in yellow metal on the arms for evening wear - for flashing in the light from the disco ball. Groovy.

NJS

[RWS]

Yeah, man!

[storeynicholas]

Here is a black brogue for the ballroom - this example, by Mr Lobb, is called a Scottish scroll brogue and is worn as part of full Highland dress:
NJS



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[NCW]

Very interesting; I have really no knowledge of formal Scottish wear, apart from the standard black tie you see them wearing.

Seeing those buckles make me wonder: should buckles go on court shoes only when white stockings are worn? Conversely, do stocking require buckles (my court shoes are the standard bowed ones). Does anyone here actually own (formal, not tweed,) stockings and breeches?

(Sorry for slight change of tack.)

EDIT. PS: The term "scroll brogue" is new to me, and this example seems to imply that the "scroll" does not describe the buckle.

[storeynicholas]

Buckles were worn, as shown below, with civilian Court dress (Sir H Ryder Haggard at his second investiture) but bows were prescribed by the Lord Chamberlain, for alternative Court dress (worn with evening breeches) until 1939.
NJS
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