Des Merrion's dislike of drape
I should like to add that there is nothing pejorative about the word "sack coat". It is just the traditional American term for a lounge coat. Even on a pattern where Croonsborg adds a front dart to the coat, he stills calls it a "sack coat". Interestingly, the German word for a lounge coat is also "ein Sakko". Older German texts also nearly always show this coat cut without a front dart. I have one description of how to cut a "Sakko" with strong waist suppression without resorting to a front dart. So a lot of pattern manipulation is still possible without it.
I think it is a bit of a pity that American posters on the internet no longer use traditional terms like "cutaway" or "sack suit", although the term "Tuxedo" still endears itself to them.
The lack of front darts on a sack coat seems more related to the American preference for greater looseness of cut. This can still be observed on coats made by Oxxford for example - even though they make their sacks with a front dart in the English manner. It seems to be part of their 'unsuppressable' Americaness. J Press are the only RTW makers who omit the front dart on their sacks in the old fashioned American manner, and I believe they also cut with the same roominess traditionally favoured by Americans.
I find it fascinating that Americans continue to favour drapey cuts to this day even after largely abandoning the traditional term "sack coat". Here is Croonborg's 1907 introduction to his section on the sack coat:
Notice that he mentions that it is cut to be "roomy and comfortable, loose enough to allow free movement..."
As for the Duke of Windsor's choice of Scholte - a Dutchman - as a tailor, one should keep in mind Whife's discussion on how the drape cut probably had continental or American origins. Here is what Byrde (The Male Image, London, 1979) has to say about the DoW:
He was particularly impressed by America, its people and their way of life and tried to introduce some of their informality in dress and social habits to Britain. His influence over male dressing the 1920's was considerable although his taste was not always thought to be entirely reliable. He had a liking for flamboyant, colourful clothes and caused a sensation in 1924 when he arrived in America dressed in a grey double-breasted suit with wide lapels and tan suede shoes, both of which were generally regarded little short of caddish at the time.
Of course, in addition to adopting a more American/continental styled drapey lounge/sack coat, he took an American wife, even abdicating his throne to do so.
I think it is a bit of a pity that American posters on the internet no longer use traditional terms like "cutaway" or "sack suit", although the term "Tuxedo" still endears itself to them.
The lack of front darts on a sack coat seems more related to the American preference for greater looseness of cut. This can still be observed on coats made by Oxxford for example - even though they make their sacks with a front dart in the English manner. It seems to be part of their 'unsuppressable' Americaness. J Press are the only RTW makers who omit the front dart on their sacks in the old fashioned American manner, and I believe they also cut with the same roominess traditionally favoured by Americans.
I find it fascinating that Americans continue to favour drapey cuts to this day even after largely abandoning the traditional term "sack coat". Here is Croonborg's 1907 introduction to his section on the sack coat:
Notice that he mentions that it is cut to be "roomy and comfortable, loose enough to allow free movement..."
As for the Duke of Windsor's choice of Scholte - a Dutchman - as a tailor, one should keep in mind Whife's discussion on how the drape cut probably had continental or American origins. Here is what Byrde (The Male Image, London, 1979) has to say about the DoW:
He was particularly impressed by America, its people and their way of life and tried to introduce some of their informality in dress and social habits to Britain. His influence over male dressing the 1920's was considerable although his taste was not always thought to be entirely reliable. He had a liking for flamboyant, colourful clothes and caused a sensation in 1924 when he arrived in America dressed in a grey double-breasted suit with wide lapels and tan suede shoes, both of which were generally regarded little short of caddish at the time.
Of course, in addition to adopting a more American/continental styled drapey lounge/sack coat, he took an American wife, even abdicating his throne to do so.
Last edited by Sator on Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What I find slightly strange is that Scholte, the famous progenitor of the 'soft' approach, spent some time as a cutter at Johns & Pegg, military tailors (whether he was actually apprenticed there, I shoukl be glad to learn). The further irony is that he finally sold up to James & James and now both Johns & Pegg and James & James are siubsumed in Davies & Son - who (at least), used to be as hard as nails - no up and over for them - the shoulders would follow the bodyline, faults and all - nearly down to the bone. Moreover, as well as favouring Scholte, the Duke also continued to use Davies & Son to the 1960s at least.
NJS
NJS
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:16 am
- Contact:
Scholte also based his drape cut on military inspiration, citing the belted, cinched Guards coat with its folds over the chest and blade as the genesis of his own style.
I know what Merrion means about seeing men swimming in the A&S style of coat. I think the firm had lost it way for a while, and was producing a poor version of its own style. One can take a look at the firm's own Karl Matthews as an exemplar of a more shaped and stylish version of the A&S drape that looks great and is flattering.
It's pretty clear that the majority of American suitwearers wouldn't know what the hell a sack suit is from an Armani. Even Brooks Brothers and J. Press, those firms so very associated with the sack, rarely produce the genuine article anymore; Press caught some flak from the diehards for giving their coat shoulders noticeable padding fairly recently. I can't remember having seen a single sack-style coat on anyone in years, regardless of age, and I pay attention to such things.
As far as drape being American per se, I can certainly see why men schooled in the soft-shouldered American sartorial tradition would have an affinity for A&S over the more rigid British style - but again, we are talking about a real minority of men who could articulate that. To some degree, it is the American designers and writers like Flusser who've helped create some of the romance for the 1930s drape cut, which might have died out in the States without their highlighting of the style.
I know what Merrion means about seeing men swimming in the A&S style of coat. I think the firm had lost it way for a while, and was producing a poor version of its own style. One can take a look at the firm's own Karl Matthews as an exemplar of a more shaped and stylish version of the A&S drape that looks great and is flattering.
It's pretty clear that the majority of American suitwearers wouldn't know what the hell a sack suit is from an Armani. Even Brooks Brothers and J. Press, those firms so very associated with the sack, rarely produce the genuine article anymore; Press caught some flak from the diehards for giving their coat shoulders noticeable padding fairly recently. I can't remember having seen a single sack-style coat on anyone in years, regardless of age, and I pay attention to such things.
As far as drape being American per se, I can certainly see why men schooled in the soft-shouldered American sartorial tradition would have an affinity for A&S over the more rigid British style - but again, we are talking about a real minority of men who could articulate that. To some degree, it is the American designers and writers like Flusser who've helped create some of the romance for the 1930s drape cut, which might have died out in the States without their highlighting of the style.
Exactly. But even if not rigorously schooled in that tradition Americans seem to intuitively go for the easy, loose freedom of a soft shouldered drape cut.masterfred wrote: As far as drape being American per se, I can certainly see why men schooled in the soft-shouldered American sartorial tradition would have an affinity for A&S over the more rigid British style.
As for what a "sack coat" is, as I say, it is just American English for a lounge coat. This is how the old American textbooks for cutter and tailor look upon it - irrespective of how latter day internet Tradites have defined it. Soft shouldered or structured, fitted or drape cut, with or without front dart - in American English it is traditionally all a "sack coat". I really get the feeling that Americans are deep down longing for an all American coat with easy cut, and soft shoulders. Hence also all this fascination with the manica camicia, A&S, and soft Neapolitan tailoring.
Last edited by Sator on Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:16 am
- Contact:
While that may be the case historically, I know of no American - not even those with sartorial knowledge - who refers to suit, sack-cut or otherwise, as a "sack" or "lounge". If the American in question knows something about tailoring traditions, he'll think of a sack as the quintessential Brooks Brothers coat style of the 1950s and '60s.Sator wrote:[As for what a "sack coat" is, as I say, it is just American English for a lounge coat. This is how the old American textbooks for cutter and tailor look upon it - irrespective of how latter day internet Tradites have defined it. Soft shouldered or structured, fitted or drape cut, with or without front dart - in American English it is traditionally all a "sack coat".
To be sure, A&S has a very large North American clientele, but I don't know if the percentage of Americans in their business is any greater than that of any of the SR firms.
Aside from Flusser's shop in NYC, I know of only one tailor in Manhattan who makes a draped style coat, and that is Cheo Park....and I would say Flusser's version of the drape rather misses the shaping that A&S puts into their coats.
-
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:00 pm
- Contact:
Variations and examples of draped coats and/or sacks that this American wears (and I assure you, even a gentleman as burly as Mr. Merrion would fail to pull eight inches of excess out of any). The photographs show examples of some of the attributes discussed in this thread.
Soft-tailored, draped jacket with no front darts or sidebodies, but underarm darts (DeBoise):
Uncanvassed, unpadded, unlined draped sack jacket, undarted but with sidebodies(Borrelli):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with full front dart to the hem and sidebodies (Solito):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):
Soft-tailored sack, no darts but with sidebodies (Chipp c.1972)
Structured but draped sack, with front dart and sidebodies (Oxxford c.1960):
Best,
Bill
Soft-tailored, draped jacket with no front darts or sidebodies, but underarm darts (DeBoise):
Uncanvassed, unpadded, unlined draped sack jacket, undarted but with sidebodies(Borrelli):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with full front dart to the hem and sidebodies (Solito):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):
Soft-tailored sack, no darts but with sidebodies (Chipp c.1972)
Structured but draped sack, with front dart and sidebodies (Oxxford c.1960):
Best,
Bill
Who could complain about those?voxsartoria wrote:Variations and examples of draped coats and/or sacks that this American wears (and I assure you, even a gentleman as burly as Mr. Merrion would fail to pull eight inches of excess out of any). The photographs show examples of some of the attributes discussed in this thread.
Soft-tailored, draped jacket with no front darts or sidebodies, but underarm darts (DeBoise):
Uncanvassed, unpadded, unlined draped sack jacket, undarted but with sidebodies(Borrelli):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with full front dart to the hem and sidebodies (Solito):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):
Soft-tailored sack, no darts but with sidebodies (Chipp c.1972)
Structured but draped sack, with front dart and sidebodies (Oxxford c.1960):
Best,
Bill
NJS\\\\
-
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:00 pm
- Contact:
Thank you.
Obviously, I snuck some RTW in even though this is the bespoke forum.
The c.1960 Oxxford is pure American RTW splendor, and shows what Sator described in its combination of an American draped sack, but with a bit of shaping.
The c.1972 Chipp is actually bespoke, but not for me. The gentleman must have been a bit more generous around the middle than I.
I had both jackets retailored for me rather gently, and neither fits exactly how I would prefer in something moder, but I wanted to preserve their archival look. I do enjoy wearing them, however...particularly the Chipp, which reminds me of boyhood.
Best,
Bill
Obviously, I snuck some RTW in even though this is the bespoke forum.
The c.1960 Oxxford is pure American RTW splendor, and shows what Sator described in its combination of an American draped sack, but with a bit of shaping.
The c.1972 Chipp is actually bespoke, but not for me. The gentleman must have been a bit more generous around the middle than I.
I had both jackets retailored for me rather gently, and neither fits exactly how I would prefer in something moder, but I wanted to preserve their archival look. I do enjoy wearing them, however...particularly the Chipp, which reminds me of boyhood.
Best,
Bill
-
- Posts: 711
- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:16 pm
- Contact:
voxsartoria wrote:Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):
Best,
Bill
I like this suit, it reminds me of H Huntsman.
Best Regards,
Cufflink79
-
- Posts: 337
- Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:02 pm
- Contact:
Any good tailor should be able to cut a one-button coat with open quarters.Cufflink79 wrote: I like this suit, it reminds me of H Huntsman.
Best Regards,
Cufflink79
Which is, IMHO, a sorry reflection of the degree to which American tailoring traditions have been marginalised. Notice too how Croonborg in my previous post mentions in his discussion of "sack coats" that "for 6 years the padded shoulder has been more or less popular".masterfred wrote:
While that may be the case historically, I know of no American - not even those with sartorial knowledge - who refers to suit, sack-cut or otherwise, as a "sack" or "lounge". If the American in question knows something about tailoring traditions, he'll think of a sack as the quintessential Brooks Brothers coat style of the 1950s and '60s.
BTW "lounge coat" is a term never found in old American tailoring text books. That term is strictly British English.
-
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:47 am
- Location: England
- Contact:
I LOVE the first DeBoise coat and checked suit.voxsartoria wrote:Variations and examples of draped coats and/or sacks that this American wears (and I assure you, even a gentleman as burly as Mr. Merrion would fail to pull eight inches of excess out of any). The photographs show examples of some of the attributes discussed in this thread.
Soft-tailored, draped jacket with no front darts or sidebodies, but underarm darts (DeBoise):
Uncanvassed, unpadded, unlined draped sack jacket, undarted but with sidebodies(Borrelli):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with full front dart to the hem and sidebodies (Solito):
Soft-tailored, draped suit with both front and underarm darts, but no sidebodies (DeBoise):
Soft-tailored sack, no darts but with sidebodies (Chipp c.1972)
Structured but draped sack, with front dart and sidebodies (Oxxford c.1960):
Best,
Bill
Great examples of a good drape cut, but in the thread '3 bespoke suits by different tailors' suit no 1 is a very bad example of the drape cut which makes my opinion easier to understand.
-
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:00 pm
- Contact:
Mr. Merrion, so do I.the tailor wrote: I LOVE the first DeBoise coat and checked suit.
The other examples are more to illustrate some of the things discussed in this thread from my collection of clothes rather than represent what I like the most now, which is best represented by what Mr. DeBoise makes for me.
Do you have a theory about why the Scholte influence seems more pervasive outside of the UK than within? It never seemed to have take hold outside of A&S and its expatriates, but flourishes in southern Italy. And we Americans love it disproportionately, I think, for the reasons that Sator points out: which is that our own tradition (now, almost entirely lost) favored jackets with a relaxed cut.
I ask you because you have a non-SR perspective.
Best,
Bill
-
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:47 am
- Location: England
- Contact:
I have no idea Bill, sorry!
Bill,
I would not describe anything I have seen in Italy as a “drape” cut, other than Rubinacci. The Italians do favor lightweight clothes and more natural constructions, but these alone do not a drape make. For example, I had to twist arms in Sicily to get a drape cut made for the LL sartoria. I suppose the warm weather and more informal lifestyle compared to the North of Europe has a lot to play in the preference for lightly constructed clothes in Italy.
I agree with Des. Edwin’s suits look very well indeed.
Cheers
I would not describe anything I have seen in Italy as a “drape” cut, other than Rubinacci. The Italians do favor lightweight clothes and more natural constructions, but these alone do not a drape make. For example, I had to twist arms in Sicily to get a drape cut made for the LL sartoria. I suppose the warm weather and more informal lifestyle compared to the North of Europe has a lot to play in the preference for lightly constructed clothes in Italy.
I agree with Des. Edwin’s suits look very well indeed.
And I do frankly admire Des’s response above. It’s something many of us would love to see more of on the “sartorial” forums.I have no idea Bill, sorry!
Cheers
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests