Des Merrion's dislike of drape

[Bishop of Briggs]

http://www.desmerrionbespoketailor.com/ ... /20080816/

Stand by your beds, I am going to make no bones about it, the Anderson and Sheppard drape cut is not my bag of tea, I have seen it on several of my clients and I don't like it, it is too excessively loose and badly fitted to my eye. I make no apology to the above as my comment is based on what I have seen with my own eyes, not hearsay, or someone elses opinion, it is my own. The reason I have seen the cut on my client is because they did not like it either which is why they then came to me! I have personally held a coat around the back section whilst my client was wearing it and I had in excess of EIGHT INCHES of surplus cloth pinched in my hands, how is that a good fitting coat or even be claimed to be anywhere near it should be??

The problem I see is the people who love the drape cut and the drape look are ramming it down everyones throats on the various clothing forums. Now, there are some knowledgable people out there singing the praises of this and that, but the bottom line is no matter what, they do not have the expertise of a tailor or a cutter, if they are so expert maybe they should come and do our job for us?

Some argue you must have drape, and while this thought can be correct and a desirable way to go, this is not true for all. A coat can be cut without drape or excess fabric and still the garment will be supremely comfortable to the wearer. The first picture below is an example of what I mean.

The first picture shows the back of my coat with my arms by my side ( the coat nor the sleeves have not been pressed ) The back is very clean with no excess across the back, I don't want, require or need any excess here as I take an 11 1/2" half back measure to start with.

The picture above shows me with my arms folded in front of me, I can do this with ease and it is effortless to move my arms fully to the front or up. The reason I can move so freely? the armholes placement is correct both vetically and horizontally and combined with the sleeves this dictates the amount of freedom of movement here, not drape. So the next time you are told drape is the best and the only way to go have a good hard think.

Our esteemed colleague, and certified artisan, certainly did not pull his punches. Do the LL members agree?

[storeynicholas]

He criticizes certain examples of soft tailoring which resulted in massive excess fullness, which is fair enough but who, seeing, say, the Duke of Windsor in one of his Frederick Scholte-cut coats would generally condemn the soft approach, or at least be unprepared to accept that, at its very best, it can be superb. On myself, I prefer structured to soft - but it's a very personal view.
NJS

[Concordia]

Des made himself a nice-looking jacket. There are other good tailors who may share his approach. Probably some bad ones, too.

[yachtie]

I'm with Des- never liked "drape". My jackets are "clean" front and back and I have no freedom of movement problems.

[Bishop of Briggs]

I was shocked by Des's comments on the A&S suit. Together with uppercase's experience of his ill-fitting sports coat, I am reluctant to try A&S.

See http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... c&start=60.

"But honestly, with the tailoring experience at AS, I had no opportunity to ask for it to assume more of the character that I would have liked. There was no basted fitting. There was no forward fitting. Indeed, the coat came out of the backroom, for my first fitting, with pockets cut, buttons sewn, collar finished, shoulder attached; fin bar fin. I was speechless, to tell you the truth."

That is not what I would expect from a Savile Row tailor with the reputation of A&S.

[troutonthefly]

Our esteemed colleague, and certified artisan, certainly did not pull his punches. Do the LL members agree?

I certainly agree he did not pull his punches.

However, as a longtime admirer of the A & S cut, and one who has chosen it for his first bespoke, I'll continue to admire Mr. Merrion's superb work while realizing my tastes lie elsewhere.

A beautiful topic, don't you think? No absolute, much personal preference, leaving us room to discuss.

Best,

Trout

[Bishop of Briggs]

Yes Trout, I hope that this thread will develop into a passionate and informed debate on drape and tailoring methods.

Regards, BoB

[Sator]

I tend to agree with Des Merrion. I don't really like a drape cut. Never have, never will.

BTW I should also add that a Rubinacci is not a full on drape cut, but a semi-drape cut. It is usually made as a front cut. The extension of the front seam down to the base of the skirt controls the drape by restricting it largely to the chest and back, and even there it is always appears well "controlled" - the wearer is never allows to swim in drape.

For more details see here:

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/vie ... c&start=15

Note that Whife states there that drape is a something foreign, and not strictly English.

The most enthusiastic proponents on the internet of the drape cut, are interestingly mostly Americans. Americans have always like their "sack coats" cut with drape. Croonborg for example, in addition to the usual American practice of omitting the front dart, often has the underarm seam stop short of the arm scye (just as on Whife's drape cut lounge coat). It is little surprising that the Americans should also hunt down tailors in the UK and Europe capable of cutting their sacks with drape and singing their high praises.

Traditional English tailors, on the other hand, have always regarded the drape with a little suspicion as an odd foreign incursion.

I have been reading Devere (see bibliography) and studying his drafting methods carefully. I am more full of admiration for him for the remarkable mathematical precision he brings to pattern drafting. The cut is closer than anything I have seen described elsewhere in more modern sources. The 16 basic measurements incorporated within a detailed proportionate system for drafting results in, for instance, an absolutely minuscule arm scye with a precision that is just amazing. Modern systems of cutting seem a bit laissez faire compared to this. Drape seems to be largely an excuse for sloppy cutting (though I know that is not always so).

I particularly enjoyed what Des Merrion wrote here:

The reason I can move so freely? the armholes placement is correct both vertically and horizontally and combined with the sleeves this dictates the amount of freedom of movement here, not drape. So the next time you are told drape is the best and the only way to go have a good hard think.

Indeed, the anthropometric precision of the cutting is what really matters - not drape.

[RWS]

Much depends upon the physique of the wearer. I, for example, am tall and slender . . . well, perhaps downright skinny. And "skinny" is not my admittedly somewhat idealized self-image. Drape (a reasonable amount of drape; I may never return to A&S) helps my appearance approximate that self-image, for which I'm grateful.

[Sator]

There are ways of creating an impression of fullness in the chest without having to resort to lots of drape. Drape can actually make a slender man look even more so, by making the wearer look like a boy in his father's clothes. In fact, this is the biggest problem I see whenever I look see pictures of Fred Astaire. Astaire seems to have have been an A&S customer, thus continuing the tradition of Americans going abroad to have drapey "sack coats" made. I suspect he was a little self-conscious about his thinness but his attempt to hide it under so much drape only draws more attention to the fact. He even seems to have found a cutter to add chest drape to his body coats!

[Bishop of Briggs]

Much depends upon the physique of the wearer. I, for example, am tall and slender . . . well, perhaps downright skinny. And "skinny" is not my admittedly somewhat idealized self-image. Drape (a reasonable amount of drape; I may never return to A&S) helps my appearance approximate that self-image, for which I'm grateful.

May I enquire why may you not return to A&S? It appears that you consider that your A&S coats have excess drape or cloth, i.e. like the ones described by Mr Merrion and uppercase.

I would have thought A&S's baggy coats defeat the main objective of going bespoke, i.e. to have a perfectly fitting garment from a personal pattern albeit in the "house" style. I am also mystified by dissatisfied customers accept and pay for garments that they are unhappy with. I also wonder whether such problems have contributed to the departure of A&S cutters (i.e. Mahon, De Boise and Hitchcock) to set up on their own.

[alden]

There are as many ways to cut clothes as there are tailors to make them and clients to bespeak them. I am always more interested in seeing the way a man dresses as opposed to the style of coat he prefers. Having perused the various forums for years now, I can safely say that I have seen many different styles of coats and very, very few well dressed men. It could also be that I am not looking in the right places but let me suggest once again that the members of this forum concern themselves less with coat styles and more with that art of understated, elegant dress.

In my own case, I submit that the two drape coats shown below, one of English manufacture and the other of Sicilian, are not at all “sacks” as has been described in this thread. They are, in fact, both quite slimming to the figure. The slightly extended shoulder, and excess in the chest allow a very naturally shaped silhouette to emerge in the overall image. That is the way Scholte designed the drape cut and that is the way it functions if made properly. Des Merrion has another way to fit his clients and from what I have seen, he does and excellent job doing so.






Cheers,

Michael

[Bishop of Briggs]

Thank you Michael. I have always liked your coats and your tailors obviously follow your instructions. How do your Sicilian coats compare with your English coats and Neapolitan equivalents?

[alden]

Dear Bishop

The English and Sicilian coats, that constitute all of my wardrobe, are very similar as they have been sewn by tailors who possess the talent and will to meet a client’s needs as closely as possible. The Sicilian coat is very natural and feels like a sweater as opposed to a coat, even when made with 650 gms cheviot tweed; the finish is also sans pareil. The English tailor, after about sixty garments, is really starting to get me dialed in, except that my aging body refuses to cooperate with either of us anymore. He has a style that pleases me greatly. With both craftsmen I feel myself fortunate.

An oft maligned Alden bromide has it that in most cases of sartorial failure, the fault can traced to the bespeaker as opposed to the tailor. I suppose its just much more convenient to cast to blame in the other or any direction save the one shining in the mirror. That goes for wayward AS drape cuts or Dege military ones. If you don’t know what you want or lack the will to impose your style if you know what it is, you risk disappointment in bespoke tailoring and a good many other things in life.


Cheers

Michael

[jb]

I learned tailoring from an exponent of a "clean and fitted" style (to avoid using any loaded terms like "Roman" or "English", etc.). I have also admired a number of draped examples that I have seen. For myself, I like a clean front and back and a bit of structure in the shoulder.

Cheers,
Joel