quick poll: would you wear a bow tie with a business suit?
'Doesn't sit too well here, either, for a professional man (excluding teachers, I think). Nor can I think of any country in which a bowtie is regarded as being as solid and sober as a long one.
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storeynicholas
Quite right - teachers and university dons - but they often cultivate eccentricity - which reminds me of the university interview involving the demise of a newspaper by fire and the other one which began with the arresting line: 'I know your father. Tell me, was it you or your brother who was killed in the war?'
NJS
NJS
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troutonthefly
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Gentlemen,
An unfortunate reality of the PR business is that my dress tends to be influenced by my clients. While I consider the bowtie appropriate and handsome, many of my clients prefer that I wear a standard necktie while representing them to the press.
Please do not get me started on the client who insists on open collar.
That said, I often travel in a bow tie.
Best regards,
Trout
An unfortunate reality of the PR business is that my dress tends to be influenced by my clients. While I consider the bowtie appropriate and handsome, many of my clients prefer that I wear a standard necktie while representing them to the press.
Please do not get me started on the client who insists on open collar.
That said, I often travel in a bow tie.
Best regards,
Trout
Thank goodness, that's one bother I don't have to contend with!troutonthefly wrote:. . . . Please do not get me started on the client who insists on open collar. . . .
The variation in response demonstrates perfectly the differences of convention. I certainly would not, for reasons which Thomas Fink in The Man's Book puts his finger on (here he is describing the way of things in England):
"Some men persist in wearing a bow tie with a jacket or suit, but at a cost: against the backdrop of modern men's dress, a bow tie appears studied or eccentric. They confer a diminished impression of authority. A man's dress is made remarkable only by its absence of defect. Conspicuous inconspicuousness is the rule, and the bow tie does nothing if not draw attention. 'If you insist on wearing a bow tie to business - and bow tie wearers are a stubborn lot - I suggest you wear it with the proper accessories,' writes John Molloy in Dress for Success. 'A red nose and a beanie cap with a propellor.'"
"Some men persist in wearing a bow tie with a jacket or suit, but at a cost: against the backdrop of modern men's dress, a bow tie appears studied or eccentric. They confer a diminished impression of authority. A man's dress is made remarkable only by its absence of defect. Conspicuous inconspicuousness is the rule, and the bow tie does nothing if not draw attention. 'If you insist on wearing a bow tie to business - and bow tie wearers are a stubborn lot - I suggest you wear it with the proper accessories,' writes John Molloy in Dress for Success. 'A red nose and a beanie cap with a propellor.'"
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storeynicholas
I think that these excerpts somewhat over-state the case. The famous Horst Tappe photographic portrait of Ian Fleming, framed in a swirl of smoke, from a Morland cigarette, gripped in a holder between his fingers, wearing a loosely knotted bat-wing polka dot bow tie, is an arresting image of James Bond's creator and, because of the perfectly relaxed and natural way that his 'props' are carried off, there is nothing flippant or eccentric here. However, if a social-climbing nincompoop were to ape the clothes, the holder and the pose, he would look like .... well, like .....a social-climbing nincompoop.
It all boils down to whether a man has style; the masculine equivalent of the feminine 'It' - which essentially cannot be taught (because it cannot be learned); it can be brought out and enhanced but it has to be there. When Gloria Swanson first came across the very young Clarke Gable, decked out in full evening dress, she thought that he still looked like a truck driver and, in the early pictures, he did have an obvious awkwardness. However, certainly by the time of Gone With The Wind, the style (which must have been there all along) had been brought out and polished up; largely by older women.
I learned the term 'bat-wing' in the lounge and greatly prefer it to 'straight-cut'. A bright, Paisley-patterned papillon bow tie is one of the most offensive items to be seen on man and suggests that its wearer is given to much enjoyment of banana-skins and prat-falls.
I note that clients seem to be controlling even the dress of some professionals now (some lawyers and some PR men). I wish that banks and medical doctors would, at least to a lesser degree, become more attentive to their clients' needs.
It all boils down to whether a man has style; the masculine equivalent of the feminine 'It' - which essentially cannot be taught (because it cannot be learned); it can be brought out and enhanced but it has to be there. When Gloria Swanson first came across the very young Clarke Gable, decked out in full evening dress, she thought that he still looked like a truck driver and, in the early pictures, he did have an obvious awkwardness. However, certainly by the time of Gone With The Wind, the style (which must have been there all along) had been brought out and polished up; largely by older women.
I learned the term 'bat-wing' in the lounge and greatly prefer it to 'straight-cut'. A bright, Paisley-patterned papillon bow tie is one of the most offensive items to be seen on man and suggests that its wearer is given to much enjoyment of banana-skins and prat-falls.
I note that clients seem to be controlling even the dress of some professionals now (some lawyers and some PR men). I wish that banks and medical doctors would, at least to a lesser degree, become more attentive to their clients' needs.
Well said! The other common cut, the diamond-end, is better avoided for informal wear, too, though it can look very nice with evening dress.storeynicholas wrote:. . . . A bright, Paisley-patterned papillon bow tie is one of the most offensive items to be seen on man and suggests that its wearer is given to much enjoyment of banana-skins and prat-falls.
Don't we all!I note that clients seem to be controlling even the dress of some professionals now (some lawyers and some PR men). I wish that banks and medical doctors would, at least to a lesser degree, become more attentive to their clients' needs.
I have some lovely diamond ends, including in wool challis, that I think are perfect for informal uses. I think a strong case can be made that the color palette, pattern and to a lesser degree, the material, will dictate the formality of the tie. But in the end, it is really the entire package that matters, which includes as its most significant factor, the intuition and bearing of the wearer.
dopey wrote:. . . . n the end, it is really the entire package that matters . . . .
This misnamed Lounger has once again made the wisest of observations. I recant.
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storeynicholas
My father had some diamond-ended evening ties but they are not often sold now in London (well a year ago anyway) and I am not sure whay not, because I agree that they are interesting.
NJS
NJS
Fleming was indeed perfectly relaxed, but the photograph seems to me to illustrate well the point. I would question whether anyone could carry off a cigarrette holder in 2008 without looking both studied and eccentric. Fleming's apparel and accoutraments are credible for the man in the photograph (i.e. a 50 year old upper class male in 1940s England) but they would still, it seems to me, fall foul of 'the Fink test' today.The famous Horst Tappe photographic portrait of Ian Fleming, framed in a swirl of smoke, from a Morland cigarette, gripped in a holder between his fingers, wearing a loosely knotted bat-wing polka dot bow tie, is an arresting image of James Bond's creator and, because of the perfectly relaxed and natural way that his 'props' are carried off, there is nothing flippant or eccentric here.
To my mind, the last person in England to wear a bow tile with impunity was Frank Muir - comedy writer, raconteur and legendary eccentric - and he died 10 years ago.
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storeynicholas
The photograph is dated 1st January 1960 and I am not sure that men's dress and accessories have changed that much since then. Moreover, the holder had a practical use because the Morland cigarettes were, I am sure, untipped (of course they were) and the mouthpiece kept the tobacco out of his mouth. Peter O'Toole still uses a holder. Only Frank Muir could wear a pink bow tie because he made it into a prop for his TV personality - people are still at that one. You overlook the broadcaster Robin Day who wore a polka dot bow tie on serious TV programmes. Anyhow, I think that Fleming looked splendid and a model to follow even now.
NJS
NJS
I wear bow ties at work. As a surgeon, it doesn't flop onto the patient (or wound) as I do an examination. Secondly, I have ruined many a tie when taking off talcum lined gloves and repositioning a regular necktie.
It does give one a slightly affected "intellectual" air, which can paradoxically comfort, rather than irritate, an anxious patient.
Sport coats are easier to pair with a bow tie to suit a variety of moods, or "affectations", if you will.
A business suit is much trickier. If the suit is dark, any muted dark bow tie is out, as in the US it will be mistaken for formal wear. In this case, the tie works best with lively colors, yet not too much, unless your intent is not to be taken seriously.
If the suit is lighter, there is more latitude, but beware of highly contrasted striped ties, as it can act like a beacon in your neck. Unless, of course, you are at a party and you love the attention.
I find that bow tie design in general suffers from the "small man" syndrome, in that the patterns tend to be loud as to compensate for their small stature. On the contrary, the bow tie itself puts an exclamation point on your "statement", so err on the side of understatement.
It does give one a slightly affected "intellectual" air, which can paradoxically comfort, rather than irritate, an anxious patient.
Sport coats are easier to pair with a bow tie to suit a variety of moods, or "affectations", if you will.
A business suit is much trickier. If the suit is dark, any muted dark bow tie is out, as in the US it will be mistaken for formal wear. In this case, the tie works best with lively colors, yet not too much, unless your intent is not to be taken seriously.
If the suit is lighter, there is more latitude, but beware of highly contrasted striped ties, as it can act like a beacon in your neck. Unless, of course, you are at a party and you love the attention.
I find that bow tie design in general suffers from the "small man" syndrome, in that the patterns tend to be loud as to compensate for their small stature. On the contrary, the bow tie itself puts an exclamation point on your "statement", so err on the side of understatement.
^ Interesting post (and welcome!). I recall that quite recently a study accused neckties of being possible disease carriers in hospitals as they brush up and around things, so a bow tie may indeed be a great deal more hygienic...
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