My first Savile Row bespoke - advice needed

[Stylecounsel]

Hello

My first post, I've enjoyed reading your forum over the years, and am now prompted to join to seek your advice.

For a few years now I have frequented Kilgour's RTW line, building up a very decent wardrobe.

However I now feel the pull of bespoke.

My question is - how does one go about selecting a tailor from the many on the Row. Should I stick with Kilgour, or strike out for fresh pastures? Their "international" line has been suggested to me, but I am uncertain.

What I'm looking for, as far as I can define it today, is a personal relationship with the cutter, and an elegant silhouette, waisted and skirted, probably one button - ie the Kilgour RTW style, perfected.

Others I had considered are Nortons and Henry Poole.

Thoughts/advice much appreciated

[tazmaniac]

Hello and welcome

As a matter of fact, I am just now wearing an "entry-level" bespoke from Kilgour, i.e. their Shanghai-Product. I have to say I am very pleased with it. However, I have a gut feeling that it could be even better, meaning reflect my personal taste even more. I felt it wasn't easy to get them to make the trousers as trim as I would like and the armholes are rather RTW-ish. In consequence, I decided to go all the way with a smaller artisan and started a relationship with Welsh & Jefferies. I have yet to finish my first suit with them, but I am very much looking forward to it. My decision was partly influenced by their travelling, which, conveniently for me, leads them to Zurich 4 times a year. The others that come to Switzerland appealed less to me, though I am not sure there is any rationale behind that decision... Norton seems quite youthful and would appeal to me, but their travel schedule doesn't include Switzerland.

kind regards, Daniel

[culverwood]

Like you the first place I considered for bespoke once I could afford it again, after school fees, was Kilgour because my cutter had moved there. I went and had a look and they seemed too big for me.

I looked around Savile Row and the surrounding area and in the end went with Benson and Clegg a small tailors. There I got the feeling that the man who was measuring me would be closely involved with my suits and get to know me. I am sure that the big companies produce stuff as good if not better but you get the feeling of a production line with some of them.

So I suggest you go up to Savlie Row and check out a number of tailors and find one who you feel comfortable with. One hopes it will be the start of a long relationship.

Norton and Henry Poole are both fine tailors.

[Mark Seitelman]

To Stylecounsel:

You are the ultimate judge of what you like and what you feels looks good on you.

You have been happy with Kilgour RTW. Why not branch-out to its bespoke department?

My experience has been with Davies & Son (Allan Bennett). I recommend them. As per its website, they are "conservative English tailors."

Your best bet is chatting with the various tailors, and look at some sample work. Also, don't be afraid to ask prices if that is a concern.

I have heard that there are some excellent tailors "off the Row."

[Frog in Suit]

If I may, I would like to advise the following:
- first, calling around, to determine prices (if that is a factor) and style. Try to find out about the firms from books, fora,etc... When, last year, I decided to go back and find a new tailor (after some 15 years...), I reread Richard Walker's Savile Row Story and built a short list, based on all the information I had gathered, (book and fora) containing 5 or 6 firms. Consider that you might prefer a small firm, or a larger one (for continuity and more work done in-house), a traditional or modern one, etc.. Do not ignore off-row firms: they may be less expensive for a similar quality level.
- go visit one or two firms and ask questions: style of cut, size of firm (how many cutters, tailors...), proportion of work done in-house, travel (where, who, how often), get a feel for the atmosphere of the shop and the people you will be dealing with. Ask to be shown some recent work: check workmanship if you feel qualified to do so. Do they seem to answer questions readily and show open-mindedness? Do you feel that they could guide you tactfully, should you need guidance?
- Out of the 5, I picked Meyer and Mortimer (aka Jones,Chalk and Dawson) on Sackville Street: price, very traditional shop, comfort level with the people I met, fairly large in size, and they travel to Paris. I am very happy with my choice. I have two suits recently delivered and two more in progress.
Above all, enjoy the experience. Choosing a cloth, deciding on style, features, etc... is great fun. My personal bias would be to think long term relationship, but you might want to try different firms as you go. Once you have tried bespoke, there is no going back!
Good luck !
Frog in Suit

[Concordia]

Take a stroll around Savile Row and see what strikes your fancy.

But if you can afford it, the logical first place to go would be Kilgour, since they share your taste. There's nothing more crazy-making than trying to convince a tailor to make something just like his arch-rival's work three doors down.

[novice]

There are a variety of styles and a range of prices available in Savile Row. My own thoguths are that money is important and one must try and comprehend just what s/he is paying for.

For example I do not see how Kilgour bespoke is superior to its entry level bespoke. (One does pay larger sums though in the former case). The chief difference that I am able to fathom that one is stitched in Shanghai (under Kilgour quality control) whilst the other is put together in (or rather under) the London showroom. In either case Kilgour I would suggest does not expect the customer to leave with the garment unless s/he is fully satisfied. This would suggest that the important thing to ensure is that you get a predictable and known cutter whose approach to the job parallels your requirements. So it is the cutter one ought to talk to and communicate with.

Personally it seems to me that the made to measure product (by no means cheap at a number of Savile Row houses, e.g., Huntsman, Richard Anderson) is also a worthwhile alternative if one has a more regular (or 'stock model') body shape, provided the tailor in question is prepared to put in the work necessary to ensure a high quality finish.

Finally, I would say that wandering around for a day or so and chatting up the tailors is excellent advice.

Hope this helps

[Concordia]

For example I do not see how Kilgour bespoke is superior to its entry level bespoke. (One does pay larger sums though in the former case). The chief difference that I am able to fathom that one is stitched in Shanghai (under Kilgour quality control) whilst the other is put together in (or rather under) the London showroom. In either case Kilgour I would suggest does not expect the customer to leave with the garment unless s/he is fully satisfied. This would suggest that the important thing to ensure is that you get a predictable and known cutter whose approach to the job parallels your requirements. So it is the cutter one ought to talk to and communicate with.

Speaking as someone who's tried both, I'd have to disagree-- somewhat. There's no question that the Kilgour cut is consistent across entry level and SR bespoke. And the Shanghai suit is pretty good, and was excellent value until the price got hiked to something like $3,000. But it's not AS good as London made. I haven't cut apart suits to compare and don't intend to, but in little things like quality of waistbands, flexibility of jacket fronts/lapels, etc., the London-made suit is incrementally but noticeably better. After 10 years or so, that advantage is only likely to widen.

So by all means try entry-level if you really want Kilgour but can't foot the astonishing bill for London-made. You'll get a decent suit and will find out on what terms you'd like to pursue that relationship. For a summer suit, or one that won't be worn a lot, it might be a prudent way to save cash. It won't be identical to a London suit, however.

[novice]

For example I do not see how Kilgour bespoke is superior to its entry level bespoke. (One does pay larger sums though in the former case). The chief difference that I am able to fathom that one is stitched in Shanghai (under Kilgour quality control) whilst the other is put together in (or rather under) the London showroom. In either case Kilgour I would suggest does not expect the customer to leave with the garment unless s/he is fully satisfied. This would suggest that the important thing to ensure is that you get a predictable and known cutter whose approach to the job parallels your requirements. So it is the cutter one ought to talk to and communicate with.

Speaking as someone who's tried both, I'd have to disagree-- somewhat. There's no question that the Kilgour cut is consistent across entry level and SR bespoke. And the Shanghai suit is pretty good, and was excellent value until the price got hiked to something like $3,000. But it's not AS good as London made. I haven't cut apart suits to compare and don't intend to, but in little things like quality of waistbands, flexibility of jacket fronts/lapels, etc., the London-made suit is incrementally but noticeably better. After 10 years or so, that advantage is only likely to widen.

So by all means try entry-level if you really want Kilgour but can't foot the astonishing bill for London-made. You'll get a decent suit and will find out on what terms you'd like to pursue that relationship. For a summer suit, or one that won't be worn a lot, it might be a prudent way to save cash. It won't be identical to a London suit, however.

One is curious to learn whether you made this point with Kilgour, and if so, how Kilgour responded, because the Kilgour view as I understand it is that there is no difference in the materials used (for identical fabric, cut, etc) as between entry level and other bespoke

[Concordia]

... the Kilgour view as I understand it is that there is no difference in the materials used (for identical fabric, cut, etc) as between entry level and other bespoke

That is correct, but not strictly relevant. The cloth is selected from the same sources that one would use in London (Lessers, Smith, et al.) and is cut in London by the same cutter you would normally use. The key word in your sentence is "etc." The Shanghai suits get that part down pretty well, but I'd be surprised if the London office were at all shocked to find that the local boys under closer supervision didn't do a better job for 2x the money.

And why a purchaser should be shocked to not get something for nothing is beyond me.

[novice]

... the Kilgour view as I understand it is that there is no difference in the materials used (for identical fabric, cut, etc) as between entry level and other bespoke

That is correct, but not strictly relevant. The cloth is selected from the same sources that one would use in London (Lessers, Smith, et al.) and is cut in London by the same cutter you would normally use. The key word in your sentence is "etc." The Shanghai suits get that part down pretty well, but I'd be surprised if the London office were at all shocked to find that the local boys under closer supervision didn't do a better job for 2x the money.

And why a purchaser should be shocked to not get something for nothing is beyond me.

My own thoughts, for what they are worth, are that some of us are fascinated (perhaps hypnotised) by the London workrooms cache, and are very willing to pay a premium for that. I remember one Savile Row tailor mentioning last year that he did not quite understand why the average American client was keen to photograph the workrooms downstairs, etc. (a bit of distraction for the tailor involved). Another Savile Row tailor, holding forth on a comparison with Kilgour, mentioned that whilst in Kilgour's entry level bespoke one guy did only sleeves, another did collars, and so on, in case of the more traditional Savile Row tailor there was a coat maker who did the whole coat, and there was advantage for the client in the latter approach. Differences in the quality of inner materials or fittings did not come up.

I think there is something in all this. But we are talking price ranges that are up in the sky by the yardstick of a good men's store in either case. The entry level bespoke is closer to 3300-3400 dollars and the other kind is closer to 5400-5500 dollars for the regular 120s fabric. You can easily add on a 1000 dollars per suit for a slightly more fancy cloth.

[Stylecounsel]

Thanks for your replies. I've gone for the Kilgour entry level option and eagerly await the results!

[novice]

Thanks for your replies. I've gone for the Kilgour entry level option and eagerly await the results!

Do keep us people at thelondonlounge informed about progress and outcome