Vest - Lapel Styles

[Pangur]

Dear Getlemen
Beeing a Newbie in the LL and mosly a reader, I didn't have any queries so far, as everything is quite fully understandable pictured, even for a non-native-speaker, by the incredibly informed members. Thanks for that, by the way!
But last night I had a weird thought (weird, that is, for 2 a.m.)
How does the lapel of a vest correspond to the suit?
Meaning:
I will always wear a SB-vest with a DB suit. Can the vest have notch lapels or must it have peak lapels like the suit?
More complicated, even:
A SB suit can have peak or notch lapels, and I can wear either a SB or DB vest with it:
- can I wear a notch-lapel SB-vest wit a peak lapel SB suit?
- can I wear a peak lapel SB-vest with a notch lapel SB suit?
- can I wear a peak-lapel DB-vest with a notch lapel SB suit?
- Is there even a notch-lapel DB vest to go with a notch lapel SB suit?
What about shawl-lapel vests?
Maybe some kind of chart (like in the formality/casual discussion) would be in order?

Kind regards
Kreisel

[dopey]

The basic rule is that any suit can take an SB vest, but only an SB suit can take a DB vest.
Another rule is that city suits with a SB vest have no lapels on the vest. This is a rule I honor exclusively in the breach, but it is a rule nonetheless. I typically get notch lapel vests on suits with notch lapels and peak lapel vests on suits with peak lapels. I have yet to get a DB vest, so I will leave others to comment on when to get a shawl lapel and when to get a peak lapel on those, but a DB vest always has lapels of some sort.

For SB vests with lapels, another consideration is sewn-on v. rolled-on (i.e., a true lapel). You can do a search here for some posts on that topic. I know I have given my thoughts on this before.

Some people like postboy style vests for country suits. Being longer, they are certainly more versatile as they are less likely to require a high back trouser.

[Concordia]

I will always wear a SB-vest with a DB suit. Can the vest have notch lapels or must it have peak lapels like the suit?

To the extent there is a Rule about this, it is no lapels with a SB vest under a DB coat. Too much clutter. My tailor was pretty firm about that, although they are one of the more authoritarian establishments so take that for what it is worth.

As far as notch lapel suits, you could , I suppose, do a DB vest. DB notch lapels look silly, however, so I'd either do without the lapels or do a shawl. Or stick to SB vest with notch jacket, and only get tricky about vests when a peak lapel jacket is involved. DB vest makes a very dandy-ish statement, and is perhaps best left for more exuberant moments.

[dopey]

I will always wear a SB-vest with a DB suit. Can the vest have notch lapels or must it have peak lapels like the suit?

To the extent there is a Rule about this, it is no lapels with a SB vest under a DB coat. Too much clutter. My tailor was pretty firm about that, although they are one of the more authoritarian establishments so take that for what it is worth. . .

i have done this with no ill effect, though that, of course, proves nothing.

[Concordia]

I will always wear a SB-vest with a DB suit. Can the vest have notch lapels or must it have peak lapels like the suit?

To the extent there is a Rule about this, it is no lapels with a SB vest under a DB coat. Too much clutter. My tailor was pretty firm about that, although they are one of the more authoritarian establishments so take that for what it is worth. . .

i have done this with no ill effect, though that, of course, proves nothing.

As long as you knew at the time that you were breaking it...

[Sator]

I must confess to being rather partial to wearing a BD waistcoat with PLs under a DB coat myself. It is a classical look, as this 1900 depiction of beach wear shows:



I own some bespoke beach wear like that myself. Here I am wearing just such a waistcoat underneath a DB coat:



Here is some proper city wear - morning dress with DBPL waistcoat underneath a DB coat:

[dopey]

. . .I own some bespoke beach wear like that myself. Here I am wearing just such a waistcoat underneath a DB coat:


. . .

Sator: I assume that DB coat is bespoke. In any case, it is a lovely example of an old-fashioned style that I find very appealing. I have a few older RTW suits and sportcoats that look something like that, though, for a variety of reasons, I have not tried to push bespoke in that direction (and don't plan to). I like the style very much.

[S.Otto]

Is that your stealth stroller rig much mentioned in your ask andy forum discussion with Alan C? Looks great. Images like that make me wish I wasn't a poor student and could afford bespoke. In time........

Hey, just noticed the buff waistcoat. Excellent use of an odd waistcoat.

[whittaker]

Sator: What an elegant, individual outfit! On what occasions do you wear this?

[HappyStroller]

Godd-looking coat, except I thought strollers have velvet-covered buttons.

[Sator]

Thank you gentlemen.

I sometimes wear semi-formal dress to work (sans boutonnière) or to a matinee concert (often avec boutonnière). The waistcoat has separately cut lapels, in the authentic Victorian/Edwardian manner - something which has not been done since early last century. The tailor said he had not cut a DB waistcoat like that since he was an apprentice in the late 1950s, and had never cut separate lapels.

The brace trousers were cut by copying an old pair of trousers that came with a frock coat suit, with a few tweaks to the fit. It has flat fronts, side adjusters, and a high fish mouth back. I also have had matching trousers made with the coat, but like to wear formal striped trousers as spare trousers - one of the biggest advantages of choosing a solid charcoal grey coating. I would like to have a lavender coloured waistcoat and a shepherd's check trousers made so I can squeeze even more variety out of the one coat.

These are all fairly subtle felicities, which together exude an old money feeling that pours forth scorn on all facile fashions. Admittedly, if you throw in the bowler hat, as I am want to do, and an English brolly, I find I get total strangers coming up to complement me. As such one could hardly call this stealth by any stretch of the imagination. For that you would need a SB notch lapel coat, buff waistcoat, and houndstooth check trousers.

[Cufflink79]

Are double breasted vest better suited for those with a thinner stomach, then those of us with a larger stomach?

Im guessing a single breasted vest would look better on a larger person such as myself.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[S.Otto]

Sator,

Thanks for supplying all the details on the stroller rig. Well, yes, not exactly stealth. In the context of the discussion stealth was just the term for piecing it together from previous purchases.

Also, can you post the rig if you decide to get the lavender waistcoat?

[HappyStroller]

There shouldn't be much difference for a vest, but for a DB jacket, the tailor needs to be skilled enough to ensure that the front bottom corners of the jacket rolls under the abdomen rather than protrude outwards. I wonder what technique is required for this.

Are double breasted vest better suited for those with a thinner stomach, then those of us with a larger stomach?

Im guessing a single breasted vest would look better on a larger person such as myself.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[Guille]

Pangur, thank you for starting this thread, I think this is an important topic and an interesting discussion.

Ok, lets try to give some order and abstraction to this thread to put thins into context. First of all, there is the obvious distinction between Rules, which are something implicit and explicit in the dressing, and ''rules'' as in what is commonly done, and recommended not to be broken, for various reasons (such as better look, informality...). I like using the latin phrases: rules de jure (by law) are the Rules, and rules de facto (in practice) are the rules by agreement or commonness. The problem in making the distinction of which is which is that many of the de facto rules have become rules de rigueur (of rigor, defined as “necessary according to etiquette, protocol or fashion”), which are rules in-between, not rules de jure (which would be, for example, to dress in blacktie when the dress code estipulated for an event is black tie) nor rules de facto (which would be, for example, to not wear a double breasted waistcoat if you are a wide person), but the middle form, that is, rules de rigueur (such as that a double breasted suit should not be worn with a double breasted waistcoat, which is not by law, but really is a rule, not something just commonly followed).

Having said that, I want to explain the complexity of the plane we have. Making a table would be good, but its hard to come up with a table that has all the possibilities, and it would have to be one in which each square has several thing written, not only yes or no, but also whether its no as in rule de jure, no as in rule de facto, or no as in rule de rigueur. I have made the table I think would work the best, please members tell me your opinion of it. I am willing to fill in the table, I only need the members who know the most to agree upon and explain each single case, not mixed up and generalizing about double breaste waistcoats, but about each type. Anyway, the thing is that we have two garments: the jacket and the waistcoat. Then, we have the variable of breasting, single or double, for each. Then we have the variable of lapals, which includes four forms for the waistcoat: peak, notch, shawl and no lapel, and two for the jacket: peak and notch. Any form I’ve left out, such as the shawl lapel jacket, can be included in the table, although its rare, if there are rules for those they can also be filled in. I think those are the major variables, and any other varaible that might exist can be explained individually out of the table, for example, if the number of buttons is relevant, or the the way the buttons are place (e.g. v-shaped buttoning in waistcoats). But variables that don’t afect the possibility of doing it or not, but affect the style (such as the fact that waistcoats should show at least a bit on the chest over the jacket).

For now, a lot of information has been given already by members, I’ll be putting it together and ask here for the other possibilities. But an example of what would be written in a rule box would be, “no lapels with a SB vest under a DB coat.” (Concordia), so that would be in the three boxes with double breasted coats and single breasted vests with lapels. But these rules have to be agreed among the members, cause there are contradiction between several rules said in the thread.

PS: I couldn't post the table properly, I'll post it when it works.