Bespoke shirts - advice needed

[tteplitzmd]

http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/directory/1200/25914.php

[tteplitzmd]

I will keep doing this until I get it right:

www.hipguide.com/london/services/1149202364.shtml

[sartorius]

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

Recommendations seem to be: Budd, Dege & Skinner, Charvet. For those who have used these makers, can you confirm whether they are truly bespoke or just MTM?

I visited Richard James Bespoke yesterday to enquire about their shirt making service. They were honest enough to tell me immediately that they offer MTM rather than bespoke. I wonder therefore whether the other makers recommended in London are actually MTM?

Do members feel that it is worth going to the trouble of the muslin fitting, or that a perfectly acceptable fit can be acheived without it? As I said in my original post, fit is my formost consideration, so this is an important question.

[Concordia]

Dege got my first shirt 96% right. A few tweaks on the rest of the order, and it was even a little better. There was no muslin fitting, but Bob Whittaker is very, very good at his job. Whether one calls it MTM or bespoke is sort of irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

[alden]

Do members feel that it is worth going to the trouble of the muslin fitting, or that a perfectly acceptable fit can be achieved without it?

I have never used Budd or Dege for shirts so I can't be of much help to you. But I have used Charvet.

A perfectly fine fit can be achieved without a muslin fitting. But a muslin fit will save you one or two steps.

A shirtmaker can cut a shirt right away for you, go through the fittings and deliver the garment to you saying, “you know on the next shirt we should do x, y and z.” On the second shirt he might say, “looks great, but on the next we should do x and y.” A muslin fitting allows the shirtmaker to dial you in before he cuts the first shirt. This should save you the cost and frustration of a first shirt that needs x, y and z; and a second shirt that needs x and y. The method is not foolproof. Fabrics react differently. But the muslin step is a way to get where you want to go better, faster and less expensively.

I need to find a way to package “better, faster and less expensively” one could make a fortune with that kind of thing.

Cheers

Michael

[sartorius]

Thank you Michael. A very lucid and helpful post.

I must say that I had not seriously considered Charvet, despite the fulsome words of LL members on other threads. From my point of view, since I live in London I have never seen the point of going to another city for bespoke clothing. There are also the issues of language and culture which make me nervous about going abroad - it is difficult enough to get things right even in one's own back yard!

I wonder if you or others would mind elaborating on Charvet's ways of working - I'm thinking of length of time, number of visits required, ease of working with staff etc.

[RWS]

. . . . Recommendations seem to be: Budd, Dege & Skinner, Charvet. For those who have used these makers, can you confirm whether they are truly bespoke or just MTM? . . . .

I cannot. I suppose Budd to offer a modified MTM, as others have said that it is MTM, but my experience (perhaps attributable to the skill of the particular cutter who has worked with me) after the first shirt (no muslin, so I paid for somewhat too-long sleeves and a slight buckling of fabric at the back of the neck) has been excellent.

If you were to travel, though, you could find comparable quality for half the price in Argentina, as I have posted elsewhere in the forum.

All that said, Charvet is the widely acknowledged master of the craft.

[Cantabrigian]

Do members feel that it is worth going to the trouble of the muslin fitting, or that a perfectly acceptable fit can be acheived without it? As I said in my original post, fit is my formost consideration, so this is an important question.

If your shirtmaker offers a muslin fitting, I would definitely do that for the reasons Alden mentioned.

Most shirtmakers, however, don't offer that approach. You can get great shirts without it - just make sure that your favorite fabrics aren't made up until you've nailed the fit (which should take 2-4 shirts).

You can try ordering some linen or viyella shirts or whatever won't see quite as much wear to start off while the pattern is being perfected.

[udeshi]

"As far as I know, Emma Willis offers Alumo fabrics but she may be alone in that regard - I don't know about Udeshi or Dunhill."

We carry Ringhart and Acorn books - not the best, but have some colours that others don't, and some designs. We mailny use Alumo and Sic Tess, also carry Atelier Romentino and Monti. We do not stock Loro Piana shirting, as we deal directly with the mill that weaves the fabric for Loro Piana, so see little point in paying over the odds. We also keep some stock fabric, so fabric we use for our ready to wear shirts, for specials. We then also have some vintage fabrics from the 1950s to the 1970s. We do not carry Thomas Mason.

We pre wash all our fabrics before make up for stock special, MTM and bespoke. This is what I was taught, and nowadays with unstable fabrics being the norm as opposed to the exception, would highly recommend it

For bespoke we make a trial shirt or two. I personally feel there is little point of a muslin shirt that is just pinned together, where you have to hope it has been pinned correctly and that the fabric you have selected acts like muslin - fine if you will only ever wear muslin shirts. Works well enough for cuffs if you are doing something out of the ordinary, for that matter paper also works for cuff samples.

Would definitely also recommend against linen trial shirts. Unstable little thing, you won't get a good fit if you base the fitting on a linen trial shirt.

If I may, a shirt does not need to be bespoke versus made to measure. More important is the person who is measuring, and if they know what they are doing, and knows what needs to be done. I have seen horrendous Savile row bespoke suits and very passable MTMs from the big Italian houses. You need to have confidence in the person you are dealing with, and not telling them what to do, but they should pick up things by themselves, and it also should be an enjoyable interaction.

[soupcon]

Good point, Oscar.

From your experience, what are the most common errors in the fitting process?

Many of my shirtmakers have cut the armholes both too large and low, enabling the most minor of drop from chest to waist.They don't get repeat business.

[udeshi]

most common errors in fitting purpose?

First one, customer insisting that he knows better than the maker.
Second one, maker not listening to customer.
Third one, maker not advising customer correctly: having low armholes allows for freedom of movement, having a collar two sizes two big is comfortable and will look ok, horizontal stripes, yes, they will make you look thinner....., a three button collar is the height of fashion,....
Fourth one, relying on a measuring tape and a measurement form, and not experience, and not thinking things through.

Shoulder drops is a big one as well. Taking account of them effectively.

[alden]

We pre wash all our fabrics before make up for stock special, MTM and bespoke.

Prewashing cloth has always been standard operating procedure. Any maker who would skip this step should be sent to tailoring school in the Tower of London. Are there makers in the UK who do not prewash? It's a scary thought.

For bespoke we make a trial shirt or two.

If you are offering trial shirts, all the better. Most makers are not so generous and a muslin fitting is a wise precaution.

If I may, a shirt does not need to be bespoke versus made to measure.

I’d like to agree with you here but my own experience with fit runs counter to your statement. I have sampled MTM shirts from some very serious makers. They are excellent shirts but they just do not fit as well as a bespoke shirt. I think it depends a lot on the level of exigency one has in a garment. If a man is very easy to fit, then he might be just as happy with MTM or RTW.

Leaving fit aside for a moment, from a purely aesthetic point of view, a well finished bespoke garment is a pleasure to own. In this regards, bespoke is less a necessity and more a preference.

More important is the person who is measuring, and if they know what they are doing, and knows what needs to be done.I have seen horrendous Savile row bespoke suits and very passable MTMs from the big Italian houses. You need to have confidence in the person you are dealing with, and not telling them what to do, but they should pick up things by themselves, and it also should be an enjoyable interaction.

Your advice to know and develop a working relationship with a good professional is excellent. The problem is knowing and recognizing the craftsman from the charlatan. In this regards fundamental knowledge and good references are valuable.

I think many of us have seen horrendous suits made by bespoke tailors. Just because a suit is bespoke or from SR does not guarantee it will be fit or made properly. And given the right physique an MTM product might do just as well. The point is to know your stuff, know your maker, make a clear order the craftsman can understand and then let them do the rest.

[alden]

most common errors in fitting purpose?

First one, customer insisting that he knows better than the maker.
Second one, maker not listening to customer.

Coming from a customer point of view, I would have to inverse errors one and two.

The most common error comes from makers who do not listen.

The second most common error would undoubtedly come from customers who do not know what they want and send mixed signals to a willing and capable craftsman totally confusing himself and maker in the doing.

[udeshi]

Most makers in London, or most places in general (not all) don't prewash the cloth.

We offer one to two trial shirts for bespoke, or as many as are needed, but as a consequence, our minimum for bespoke is higher (8).

I

If I may, a shirt does not need to be bespoke versus made to measure.

"Just because a suit is bespoke or from SR does not guarantee it will be fit or made properly. And given the right physique an MTM product might do just as well. "

This is what I meant. If you have somebody who knows what they are doing, yes, of course a bespoke shirt should fit much better than a MTM, and if you have specific preferences, such as a very high armhole, then you need bespoke. But it is better to have a good MTM, than a bad bespoke was the point I was trying to get at. Just because it is bespoke, doesn't mean it is good.

[RWS]

(Duplicative posting deleted.)