Looking Before I Leap: Questions for "My" Tailor

[ccox]

Gentlemen;
That's it.... I've had it... I'm taking the plunge. I need a new set of dinner clothes and I refuse to pay an outrageous price for an off-the-peg number and a search of the local vintage stores hasn't revealed anything that should/could be altered to suit. So, I've decided to bespeak said garment. Probably a 3 piece, single-breasted peak lapel.

There are two shops here in town (Richmond, VA) that claim to do full bespoke. I've rung up and scheduled appointments for this week with the owners of both. And now I'm afraid that as soon as I cross their thresholds, I will draw a blank, much as I do in used bookstores when confronted with endless possibilities.

So, I'm making a list of questions to take with me while I'm sizing up those who will size me up in turn. Below I've got the beginnings, what have I missed? I'm hoping to establish once and for all that their products are truely bespoke and not "custom" or cut-make-trim (and what exactly does that mean?) Am I off on the wrong track altogether? Any input is greatly appreciated.

1) How and where did you learn your trade?

2) What method do you use to draft a pattern? Is it made exclusively for me or tweaked from a standard pattern?

3) How many fittings can I expect?

4) Who is going to cut the cloth?

5) Who is going to tailor the garment?

6) Do you use floating/ fully hand-canvassed pieces?

7) Do you hand sew button holes? Are interior seams finished? Are buttons real horn or bone?

What is your preference of shoulder? Natural? Roped? Heavily padded? etc.

9) How do you feel about waist supression? Gorge height (I'm 5'8")?

10) Do you prefer fishtail back trousers to accommodate braces? Side tabs to eliminate belts? Or....?

11) May I see something you're making up now?

12) Would you mind if I took pictures during the process to share with a few people online?

Best Regards,
CCox

[Concordia]

Cut-make-trim is what gets pumped out by various suitmaking factories, although it is also used to describe a tailor's use of customer's own cloth.

Your first errand is to establish that the clothes are made if not on the premises, by an inidividual or readily identifiable number of tailors responsible directly to the guy in the shop. Not that Samuelson and the like do a bad job-- it's just not what you seem to be wanting now.

Assuming there's an actual person in charge of your clothes, you need to see what his sense of style is, if any. Does he have a preference for more or less padding, more or less drape, hard or soft canvas? Can he discuss the trade-offs intelligently?

Then, there is the question of How Good. Do the hand-worked buttonholes look right? If there's a client in the shop, does he look well-dressed or like a car salesman?

[RWS]

Not to dissuade you, Chris, but have you tried the little men's shop that exists (well, it did exist some thirty and more years ago) on Broad, not far from the old Greyhound 'bus station? It has -- had -- a fine assortment of new old-stock men's suits and, often, dinner clothes, all well-made and easily altered (elsewhere!) to perfection. If you find the tailors unsatisfactory, you might do better and save a good deal of money by going to that little shop.

[Martin Stall]

That seems like a very fair and relevant list of questions to me. I'm always happy when a prospective customer has this much interest in, and knowledge of, the work he wants from me.

[HappyStroller]

Will the self-tie bowtie, jacket lapel and cummerbund and trouser side stripes be all made from the same material and are all(!?) bespoke? What about the jacket collar? I'm not sure what a waistcoat material should be made of.

Will the collar of the shirt be pointed and not wing? Is the shirt collar attached and soft? Where will the shirt stud position/s be? Is the shirt bosom pleated or made of pique? Attached French cuffs for a soft pointed collar, or detachable single cuffs for stiff, detachable (hence, starchable) wing collars?

Gentlemen;
That's it.... I've had it... I'm taking the plunge. I need a new set of dinner clothes and I refuse to pay an outrageous price for an off-the-peg number and a search of the local vintage stores hasn't revealed anything that should/could be altered to suit. So, I've decided to bespeak said garment. Probably a 3 piece, single-breasted peak lapel.

...<snipped>...
Best Regards,
CCox

[ccox]

Not to dissuade you, Chris, but have you tried the little men's shop that exists (well, it did exist some thirty and more years ago) on Broad, not far from the old Greyhound 'bus station? It has -- had -- a fine assortment of new old-stock men's suits and, often, dinner clothes, all well-made and easily altered (elsewhere!) to perfection. If you find the tailors unsatisfactory, you might do better and save a good deal of money by going to that little shop.

Ah, things have changed a bit since then. I live in The Fan, not too far from that bus station. Broad Street is a lunar landscape, very much a Rt 1. What renovation and reclaimation is being done is by our local university -- VCU. Most of the retail has gone elsewhere. I've worked with a local retailer who fits the Canali and Oxxford suits to me nicely enough, but recent price hikes have put those labels within a couple of hundred dollars of what I have been quoted for bespoke (if in fact it is true bespoke.) Since I've wanted to go that route for awhile the signs seems auspicious. The tailors I am going to see are Nathan's Custom and Leviner Wood.

[ccox]

Will the self-tie bowtie, jacket lapel and cummerbund and trouser side stripes be all made from the same material and are all(!?) bespoke? What about the jacket collar? I'm not sure what a waistcoat material should be made of.

Will the collar of the shirt be pointed and not wing? Is the shirt collar attached and soft? Where will the shirt stud position/s be? Is the shirt bosom pleated or made of pique? Attached French cuffs for a soft pointed collar, or detachable single cuffs for stiff, detachable (hence, starchable) wing collars?

Think more Cary Grant rather than Adolph Menjou. Soft collars on the shirts, probably piqué bosom. I think a vest in the same material as the suiting, maybe a U shape? Grosgrain lapels, stripes and covered button. We'll see. Right now I want to simply "vet" the two tailors to see what I'll be getting. There is also a third (who is rather aged at this point) that I may ask to see -- Mr. Alan Zimm.

[oscarsfan]

I have made some attempts to source good grosgrain and the good stuff is getting quite expensive. Can you please let us know if you or your tailor has a reasonably priced source.

I am not too fond of satin. Grosgrain looks so much better in my opinion.

[oscarsfan]

Typically dinner suits have been made with barathea. My fathers wedding outfit (early 1950s) must be 15 oz and just amazing english fabric. I had purchased some black fresco (H&S crispaire) to get a skeleton lined dinner suit made (the fabric got sent to the wrong continent) for summer use. Thinking about pairing it with a white linen-cotton (sic tess or LP) white covered placket, turn down collar shirt for warmer weather. In queue for tailoring once I get a hold of the fabric again.

Not finding the right grosgrain is frustrating. Apparently the english silk mill (also made amazing tie silk that was at one time used in Kiton 7 folds) is no more. These guys had the most substantial grosgrain.

The other samples I have seen and felt just lack the body. Have seen some good grosgrain on RL offerings but have no idea where to source them.

-

[dopey]

Typically dinner suits have been made with barathea. My fathers wedding outfit (early 1950s) must be 15 oz and just amazing english fabric. I had purchased some black fresco (H&S crispaire) to get a skeleton lined dinner suit made (the fabric got sent to the wrong continent) for summer use. Thinking about pairing it with a white linen-cotton (sic tess or LP) white covered placket, turn down collar shirt for warmer weather. In queue for tailoring once I get a hold of the fabric again.

Not finding the right grosgrain is frustrating. Apparently the english silk mill (also made amazing tie silk that was at one time used in Kiton 7 folds) is no more. These guys had the most substantial grosgrain.

The other samples I have seen and felt just lack the body. Have seen some good grosgrain on RL offerings but have no idea where to source them.

-

I am sympathetic. I asked Raphael to show me what he had in stock in the way of grosgrain and, more importantly, braid for the trouser stripes. I remember that he admitted the braid he had was pretty bad. The grosgrain was ok, but nothing great.

[ccox]

One interview down.

I met with a Mr. Michael Zell of Nathan's Custom (est. 1936. Sen. John Warner of VA is a customer.) "Custom," it seems means MTM. He is a perfectly nice guy and I enjoyed my time with him. He correctly diagnosed the faults with the suit that I was wearing and the reason that they existed -- mostly to do with forward hips (one raised, but opposite my dropped shoulder) and dropped, but forward, right shoulder.

I was shown a nice 9 1/2 oz. mohair in midnight blue. The grosgrain silks are made in England, but didn't seem as substantial as some I've seen. At least not like the stuff on my vintage dinner suits. But they were better looking than the polyester stuff I saw on a notch-lapel tuxedo being made up. Fishtail trousers wouldn't be a problem.

The process would involve a basted fitting, a forward fitting and another before it is finished. The collars, shoulders, lapels, chest, buttonholes, etc. are all handsewn. He said that they use machines on the inseam and outseam of the trousers, but that was good for strength.

Mr. Zell is also a friend of Mr. Logsdail and mentioned that he speaks with him regualrly when he runs into something that stumps him. He is also a good friend of Mr. G. B. Boyer (whose article in an ancient "Cigar Aficienado" led me to Nathan's.)

Tomorrow I meet with Mr. Woods of Leviner Woods. Over the phone I've been told that they could do full bespoke or MTM and CTM with material I bring.

[ccox]

Mr. Woods wins out on this round. He has a tailor here in town and claims to do bespoke as well as MTM. He has listened to my questions and answered honestly. He books out extra time for me since I'm not one of those guys who (his words) "says 'make me look good' and is out of the ship in 10 minutes."

Because of the cost of "getting to know him" (i.e. collabroating on the first suit) I've elected to try his MTM service which, he claims, is far superior to MTM. I will have a basted fitting, every curved seam and button hole will be hand-sewn, as will the fully hand-canvassed chest and lapels. The pockets will be besom, double-piped. The lapels -- I'm leaning to a 4" peaked striving for the long and lean look. Point to point is 18" after a suit cut by Gieves for my wife's grandfather that flatters me when I wear it. I've spec'ed double vents, but may close them up (although I have an unfortunate habit of putting my hands in my pockets.) I think the trousers will be single-pleat, possibly reverse, with on-seam pockets.

He brought in some mohair blends for me. The 10 oz is from Isle Fabrics (I believe) who surces it from Harrison. It seemed the most substantial, but is mostly worsted wool. He fared a bit better on the grosgrain, which matched the look and feel of the stuff on my father's ca. 1940 tuxedo. (He also showed me a 100% worsted cashmere that was gorgeous, but out of my price range this go-round.) I'll have a fabric quote soon.

That's all for now, except to say thank you to all who weighed in and especially to Will who helped me narrow down my list of questions.

Regards,
CCox

[Cantabrigian]

I thought that the only MTM operation that could hand-pad lapels & canvas was Oxxford.

I'd actually be somewhat surprised if there was another one that also did that.

[ccox]

I thought that the only MTM operation that could hand-pad lapels & canvas was Oxxford.

I'd actually be somewhat surprised if there was another one that also did that.

He assures me that all my demands will be met. I'm approaching Oxxford prices, so I hope so. Title, taxes and tags, the tuxedo will run about USD$3,000.

Larry has also said that he will take me to tour the factory and meet the three tailors who do this sort of work and that I can meet his tailor here in town who can do full bespoke. I believe the factory is in Tennessee. I'll listen harder next time.

Today he told me that he can take on 5 new customers (at least) a year, but only one of me. He also knows that our collaboration will be documented on-line (he readily agreed to picutres.) I'd be mighty disappointed if he didn't deliver.

CCox

[ccox]

Typically dinner suits have been made with barathea. My fathers wedding outfit (early 1950s) must be 15 oz and just amazing english fabric.-

I have my father's DB tuxedo that is in barathea and must also be at least that heavy. It was made in the 40s and he wore it in Louisiana! Must have been for those chilly holiday parties when the mercury dipped into the high 60sºF...