Frock Coats today?

"The brute covers himself, the rich man and the fop adorn themselves, the elegant man dresses!"

-Honore de Balzac

Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:29 am

jruley wrote:Other good sources for turn-of-the-century frock coat patterns include "The Art of the Tailor" by Robert Doyle, available from Sartorial Press Publications; and "The Blue Book of Men's Tailoring -- Grand Edition of Supreme System for Producing Men's Garments" by Frederick Croonborg, available in reprint from R L Shep Publications.

That separately cut lapel Sator mentioned is there to help produce a "round chested" effect which was considered fashionable in the mid- 19th century. A clever tailor may cut the facing so the seam appears only on the body, not the lapel. Or the lapel seam may be replaced by a pair of darts on the button line.

I can't speak for European coats, but the most common mid-19th century lining in American frocks is alpaca. Don't know if it's still available today.
I find that tailor rarely need to have all that information from old tailoring manuals to tell them how to do their job. And they certainly won't have the time to read any of it. A pattern and a fashion plate showing enough stylistic detail is usually all they need.

As for the separately cut lapel, I have never really found a good historical source thoroughly justifying this construction. Have you read anything conclusive? The round chested look (with a really narrow waist) was fashionable earlier to mid century - the chest often had padding added to it. My waistcoats with a separately cut lapel certainly don't have any more of a round chest than those with a whole cut lapel. My finest Edwardian frock with the nicest lapel roll has a whole cut lapel. I have a couple of coats with separately cut lapels which look a bit flat and lack an elegant roll. Perhaps the separately cut lapel helps the lapel roll when it is otherwise well made, but that is about all. I tend to suspect it is more a matter of showing off the fine detail.

All of my European frock coats (mostly Edwardian) have a grosgrain lining. Grosgrain wasn't around mid century either.
jruley
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:19 pm
Location: Springfield, OH
Contact:

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:58 am

I find that tailor rarely need to have all that information from old tailoring manuals to tell them how to do their job. And they certainly won't have the time to read any of it. A pattern and a fashion plate showing enough stylistic detail is usually all they need.
That's exactly what these references contain; pattern drafts and illustrations of the finished garment. Unless you are sure the one you posted is "best", his tailor might like to have a choice. Having said that I haven't actually used any except DeVere's, which is probably too antiquated for his purpose.
As for the separately cut lapel, I have never really found a good historical source thoroughly justifying this construction. Have you read anything conclusive?
The evidence of my own experiments has been conclusive enough for me. Of course there are other ways of shaping the chest, of which DeVere illustrates several. And the book by Doyle I cited shows how varying degrees of slant on the top of the lapel help govern the height of the roll.
I tend to suspect it is more a matter of showing off the fine detail.
I will defer to the professionals but I doubt it. Seams and stitching were not supposed to be prominent in fine quality clothing, at least at mid-century. If it wasn't functional, it wouldn't be there.

Thanks,

Jim R.
Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:29 pm

jruley wrote:
That's exactly what these references contain; pattern drafts and illustrations of the finished garment. Unless you are sure the one you posted is "best", his tailor might like to have a choice. Having said that I haven't actually used any except DeVere's, which is probably too antiquated for his purpose.

The evidence of my own experiments has been conclusive enough for me. Of course there are other ways of shaping the chest, of which DeVere illustrates several. And the book by Doyle I cited shows how varying degrees of slant on the top of the lapel help govern the height of the roll.

I will defer to the professionals but I doubt it. Seams and stitching were not supposed to be prominent in fine quality clothing, at least at mid-century. If it wasn't functional, it wouldn't be there.
Thanks for your input.

I should say that what I have written is intended to guide someone towards making a garment which looks perfectly modern, elegant, and wearable. It will be less useful for someone who is out to specifically recreate the historical style of a definite period for historical costume re-enactment. That is why I suggest modern DB styles such as 6x2 or at least 4x2.

Experienced bespoke tailors only take historical patterns as a guide. Tailors have their own methods of draughting patterns. Only an enthusiast in costume re-enactment should literally cut a garment straight off a historic pattern.

Doyle states of Devere's and other 19th century systems of cutting:

Outside their fanciful and interesting "antiqueness", these systems are no longer appropriate for practical use, since the modern body no longer "carries itself" in the same manner.

I read this to say that a modern tailor would prefer to ultimately cut his own pattern based on his own pattern draughting techniques.

I could have easily posted lots of patterns and textual references from all of the texts you cite. I own them too. However, my experience is that a modern tailors won't appreciate you lecturing them on the use of some antiquated cutting system. That is getting into their kitchen too much. Tailors prefer that you give them an overall guide to style and to trust them to cut the coat according to their own system. That is why I have kept things simple and clear.

Doyle's reproduction of illustrations of different lapels styles to which you refer just illustrates different button stances (4x2, 6x3, 8x4). That's all. An experienced tailor won't find it in the least bit useful. The elegance of a lapel roll is more the result of how well constructed the coat is.

I have asked a couple of bespoke tailors about the separately cut lapels and they both thought it was purely decorative. Sometime in the late Edwardian era the whole cut lapel becomes the norm on both dress coats and frock coats. It seems tailors decided it was unnecessary. Having a coat with a whole cut lapel in my collection with a roll much more elegant than others with a lapel cut separately tends to make me think that this detail is dispensable. The whole cut lapel (on both dress coats as well as frock coats) is also more modern, simpler and cleaner looking.
jruley
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:19 pm
Location: Springfield, OH
Contact:

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:05 pm

Thanks for your input.
You're welcome -- but it's becoming obvious that I am in the wrong church here. So, I won't waste any more of your valuable time.

I hope Guillermo's project turns out well.

Jim Ruley
dopey
Posts: 862
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:24 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:21 pm

jruley wrote:
Thanks for your input.
You're welcome -- but it's becoming obvious that I am in the wrong church here. So, I won't waste any more of your valuable time.

I hope Guillermo's project turns out well.

Jim Ruley
You are mistaken. Disagreement is just that - disagreement. It is not heresy. While I don't care much about the entire frock coat genre, I enjoy your participation here and your knowledge of certain older tailoring techniques and garments. I hope you stick around.
Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:26 pm

All of these fabrics come from H Lesser. The label with the cloth number was stuck on the back of the fabrics. For those cloths which have a clear front and back, I have scanned the front, otherwise I have scanned the label side.

1. Ultrafine Herringbone 11/12 Oz #29906

A modern version of a traditional weave for morning coats but also suitable for frock coats. The repeat is 2mm wide. It has a beautiful dry and smooth hand - vintage Lesser. It has a slight sheen. The black is more a really dark Oxford grey. It is a bit lighter and suitable for a greater range of weather conditions. It may be better for warmer weather (eg Spain).

Image

Also available in a 13 Oz version #29810 which has a darker, inkier black colour.

2. Barathea 12 Oz #28160

I am sure this is barathea, though I have been known to be wrong. It has a beautiful, lush and velvety hand, while retaining the full body that Lesser is famous for. It is a rich, inky black with a thoroughly matt finish.

Image

3. Herringbone 12 Oz #28148

A traditional herringbone weave. The machine setting was probably looser than on the previous cloth. It has a soft, lush and velvety hand that retains the full body that Lesser always delivers. A beautiful, rich and inky black colour. The repeat is 5mm. At 12 Oz, it is reasonable for a Mediterranean climate.

Image

Also available in a 14 Oz version #28144 which has a more matt finish and an inkier black colour.

4. Serge Weave 13 Oz #29740

A medium 13 Oz weight - arguably the optimal weight to give the maximum drape. The hand is very dry, crisp and has maximal body. The finish has some sheen, as you would expect from a serge weave.

Image

5. Barathea 14 Oz #28150

Again, I am pretty sure this is barathea. It also has a beautiful and lush hand. A rich, inky black with a perfect matt finish. It has a finish, body and hand almost identical to my finest vintage/antique frock coats. Pity it will be less comfortable in a warmer climate.

Image

6. Unknown Twill Weave 12 Oz #28164

I am uncertain of the name of the weave. It has an extremely dry, crispy hand with tremendous body. A tight weave, it is has a slight sheen to it. It is a rich coal black. A definite winner.

Image
schneidergott
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:13 pm
Location: Castle Douglas, Scotland

Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:53 pm

Hola, Guillermo!

This is an old german pattern from the 30's, along with a little drawing. I guess although it's written in german any tailor should understand the basic construction.

Image
This is a more contemporary version from the 50's with a modern shoulder. This one should be easier to make, as it refers to todays common tailoring techniques.

Image
If the tailor doesn't get it, I might try to translate the construction guides to english or even italian(the latter only if absolutely nesessary)!


SG
Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:52 am

Ausgezeichnet!

I really like these more modern patterns with their whole cut lapels, and 4x2 or 6x2 button closure.
Guille
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:38 am

schneidergott wrote:Hola, Guillermo!

This is an old german pattern from the 30's, along with a little drawing. I guess although it's written in german any tailor should understand the basic construction.

Image
This is a more contemporary version from the 50's with a modern shoulder. This one should be easier to make, as it refers to todays common tailoring techniques.

Image
If the tailor doesn't get it, I might try to translate the construction guides to english or even italian(the latter only if absolutely nesessary)!


SG
Hi. Thanks a lot for the patterns, I'm sure that tailors will understand them. I like the look of the 30's one, I'm not really experienced enough to suppose who the look of the 50's one is from its cutting pattern. Anyway thanks a lot.
Guille
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:24 pm

Sator,

About the fabrics, I most probalby won't be living in Spain by the time I have the frock coat, so I discard for the time the ultrafine Herringbone. I think the classical Herringbone may be better for a morning coat, don't you think, than for a frock coat, as it is supposed to have originality. I liked both Barathea fabrics, which do you recomend best of the two? Also, are the serge weave and the unknown twill weave in the line of the proper frock coat fabrics? And finally, why do you consider the unknown twill weave the winner?

Thanks a lot for your time and effort. Excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject.
Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:19 am

I would go for one of the baratheas depending on what weather you plan to wear the coat in. 12 Oz will be more versatile. 14 Oz is more of a traditional weight and will drape beautifully. However, you will limited to wearing it on cooler days. These two have a beautiful, lush hand but all the body that you expect from Lesser. I am not 100% certain they are baratheas but they certainly look like it when compared side by side with some cloth I have which I know to be barathea.

I said the last one was a winner - not the winner. In fact they are all winners. I doubt you would go wrong with any of them.

Next, in reply to your PM on 4x2 vs 6x3 etc. It is a way of denoting the buttoning of double breast coats. 4x2 means: four buttons, two of which are used to close the coat. In the following picture the coat on the left is an 8x4, and on the right a 4x2:

Image
Guille
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:04 pm

Ok Sator, now I understand those figures. I will post probably choose one of the barathea fabrics, at least for a first frock coat. The 14 Oz's weight and thickness isn't a problem, for I won't be wearing a frock coat whatever fabric it is in hot weather, its just too formal nowadays, unless it is the case of a wedding in or around summertime, but in which case a morning coat will make a perfect substitute.

I'm creating the picture of the frock coat I want in my head, bit by bit. Its length would be right to the middle of my knees.

I'm not very sure about the waist seam, I think I need to know more about it, but I think a middle height would be best, so that it doesn't look too odd today but also retains its original hourglass shape which made it such an elegant garment. But I should be centered on how the frock coat will look on me, and I have long legs, so in my case, what should be the height of the waist seam? Please tell me your thoughts about this aspect.

From the frock coat article on wikipedia I know that shoulder padding was absent or minimum with frock coats. Was this only in the 19th century and then changed to having, or it would be an error to have shoulder padding?

The frock coat will be double-breasted, with 6x3 buttoning. This I think will give the best look in relation to my height and width. I prefer the look of the buttons if the are in two straight vertical lines, instead of how other double-breasted frock coats look where the buttons are closer to the one horizontal to it as you go down the waist, let me know If I'm explaining myself here.

In your illustrations the frock coats seem to have small armholes, which I suppose is to add mobility to the coat. This detail I like. The frock coat will not have any outer pockets, though I'll probably ask to have two breast pockets inside. The lapels would be satin (as was the classic way, I believe), peak, and I'd like them to be narrow, very similar to the ones that the man in the wedding illustration is wearing on the frock coat article in wikipedia. One thing I want to be careful about is the skirt. I don't want it to look very skirt-like as the one of the wedding, on the contrary, I want to look straight, similar to those in the illustration just above, where there is one with a 8x4 frock coat and one with a 4x2 dress frock coat.

So more or less the look I want is like the man of shneidergott's first illustration, only that with narrow lapels and 6x3 buttoning.

Now comes the moment of discussing the accessories. Up to what I've seen, frock coats are always worn with waistcoats even if they are double-breasted. That is good for I'm really let down by the disappearance of the waistcoat that has been happening since the 60s, and I think it needs a revival as so many garments. I have also noticed that the waistcoats are nearly always double breasted. Is there any limitation to the colour of the waistcoat in formal events? I believe not, unless it is a funeral, in which case it should be black. Then there is the aspect of the neckwear. Neckties became common in the 20th century with frock coats, and that is what I will wear most, but I will also wear ascots, at some weddings. I believe the top hat is the only proper headwear with a frock coat, correct me if I’m wrong. A boutonniere was almost standard with the frock coat for whatever the occasion, am I right? Detachable winged collars were the most common, and shirts should be single cuffed. What are the correct shoes? I used to think it was oxford boots, but on wikipedia it says oxford shoes was correct. I’m also thinking that I should have an overfrock made with the frock suit, so that I can have a matching coat for winter. Tell me your thoughts on the accessories in general.
Sator
Posts: 485
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:49 am

OK we are now getting into territory which is best left between you and your tailor. An experienced tailor used to making a body coat will advise you about the height of the waist seam. Likewise with shoulder padding. You should go for a coat which looks good on you rather a historically accurate one, which would be suitable for a period costume film. And yes, do ask for high armholes - on the lounge coats your tailor makes for you before the frock coat. Only order a frock once you are happy with the armhole construction on your lounge coats.

As for the button configuration, again discuss this with your tailor. I would suggest 6x2 or 4x2, as these are more modern looking. 6x3 is something rarely seen on coats these days, and would make the frock look even more costumey in my opinion. I suspect your tailor will say the same thing.

Accessories. Those details from the Wiki article were written by me.

Shoes: Oxford shoes are fine, modern, perfectly correct. Oxford boots like the EG Shannon or the London Lounge Limited Edition from Carmina are hard to find, expensive but more dandified. Button boots are the hardest to find of them all and have to be ordered bespoke. They are the most traditional, rarified and extravagantly dandified option of them all. This pair comes from Dimitri Gomez:

Image

http://www.dimitribottier.com/3.aspx

Waistcoat: should be ordered with the frock coat in a configuration that allows it to show about 1 cm above the frock coat when buttoned up. To help this the waistcoat should have more buttons eg frock coat is 6x2 then waistcoat is 8x4, frock is 6x3 then the W-C 8x4 or even 10x5. Colour: same as frock (most formal), dove grey or buff.

Fabrics: order an extra metre of the fabric for the frock coat. There is a nice dove grey in the Holland and Sherry formal book. Buff Irish linen:

http://www.hfw-huddersfield.co.uk/hardy ... =613830137?

Hats: The only appropriate hat is a top hat. The finest silk top hats (not a collapsible opera hat), can be brought in London. You would have to start a separate thread and get advice for more details.

Trousers: Flat fronted brace trousers.
Guille
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:11 am

This is all the basic information I needed, I will put those aspects into consideration with the tailor. I'll make sure to order a couple of waistcoats made to the measurements of the frock coat. I think youa re right about the 6x3, I hadn't realised that 6x2 is different, I had supposed they are the same, of course it means the top line doesn't button. I'll go for that. Thanks a lot for everything.
Marcodalondra

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Sorry to Resurrct this thread, but a friend of mine was searching for formal daywear ideas in rental shops and was shown a modern Frock coat (in italian known as "finanziera" and asked me about it, I did further research and also found this post.

Could you comment on the pictures at the links below and what you think about these version compared to the older version covered in this post?


http://www.moss.co.uk/pws/hire/weddings ... suits.html 

http://www.youngs-hire.co.uk/images/wed ... 0Black.jpg

http://www.1860.com:80/en/morningwear/f ... kcoat.aspx
Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests