Oxxford.

[Martin Stall]

Actually, the lines are thin, and very clear:

GOOD handwork ALWAYS rules over machine work. That is to say, if one sees oneself as an individual, and wishes his clothes to be equally individual.

[iammatt]

A few people have commented on the pick marks on the back side of an Oxxford lapel in a negative sense, but if the roll is beautifully executed, I can't see the harm. I have only one Oxxford, in a slightly thick brown cashmere and even under a loop, no marks are visible.

.

Well the back of the lapels doesn't bother me at all, but every time I look at an Oxxford coat in a hard finished fabric, I see some random pad stitching marks in the area that I highlighted below. It just looks bad... like somebody was doing a job and not creating a nice coat.

[Martin Stall]

A few people have commented on the pick marks on the back side of an Oxxford lapel in a negative sense, but if the roll is beautifully executed, I can't see the harm. I have only one Oxxford, in a slightly thick brown cashmere and even under a loop, no marks are visible.

.

Well the back of the lapels doesn't bother me at all, but every time I look at an Oxxford coat in a hard finished fabric, I see some random pad stitching marks in the area that I highlighted below. It just looks bad... like somebody was doing a job and not creating a nice coat.

Why are they padding so far behind te roll of the lapel anyway? I mean, pad stitching just cannot be done invisibly, so that area ought to be left untouched, I was taught, precisely for the reasons being discussed here. ???

[iammatt]

Why are they padding so far behind te roll of the lapel anyway? I mean, pad stitching just cannot be done invisibly, so that area ought to be left untouched, I was taught, precisely for the reasons being discussed here. ???

I always wondered that as well. Sometimes it is obviously outside the roll, sometimes it looks like it is below. Who knows. I get the feeling that they don't know what the jacket is going to look like, rather that they know their job is to put in pad stitches.

[Martin Stall]

Why are they padding so far behind te roll of the lapel anyway? I mean, pad stitching just cannot be done invisibly, so that area ought to be left untouched, I was taught, precisely for the reasons being discussed here. ???

I always wondered that as well. Sometimes it is obviously outside the roll, sometimes it looks like it is below. Who knows. I get the feeling that they don't know what the jacket is going to look like, rather that they know their job is to put in pad stitches.

Now that is an assumption that would seem very unlikely in an outfit like Oxxford. Perhaps it's in the same category af the fluting of the sleevehead? (Stop, hold it, I'm only joking!)

[zegnamtl]

Matt,

I misunderstood you, I thought the marks were hidden by the actual roll of the lapel.
If they fall in the area marked.....unthinkable!

A few people have commented on the pick marks on the back side of an Oxxford lapel in a negative sense, but if the roll is beautifully executed, I can't see the harm. I have only one Oxxford, in a slightly thick brown cashmere and even under a loop, no marks are visible.

.

Well the back of the lapels doesn't bother me at all, but every time I look at an Oxxford coat in a hard finished fabric, I see some random pad stitching marks in the area that I highlighted below. It just looks bad... like somebody was doing a job and not creating a nice coat.

[Despos]

Why are they padding so far behind te roll of the lapel anyway? I mean, pad stitching just cannot be done invisibly, so that area ought to be left untouched, I was taught, precisely for the reasons being discussed here. ???

I always wondered that as well. Sometimes it is obviously outside the roll, sometimes it looks like it is below. Who knows. I get the feeling that they don't know what the jacket is going to look like, rather that they know their job is to put in pad stitches.

That is the issue with mass production. Operators know their task and not always what comes next or how their work plays out in the construction scheme. High volume and rushing to keep on schedule, these errors become oversights.

In custom work, changing the button position or roll of the lapel could have this result but would be known by the tailor and corrected as part of the adjustment.

[Guest]

Iammatt,

Indeed, this is big part of what set me off on this mission, to establish for myself, what are the important elements to be done by hand, what is good hand work, can I learn to spot it easily and what can be done better by machine.

They're the two big questions aren't they.


1. What elements NEED to be done by hand [instead of machine work] to make a better fitting coat/jacket ?
2. What elements of suit making are better done by machine?

Something else l would like to ask is: what is the advantage of a hand sewn collar over a machine sewn collar? Please don't tell me `it just fits better'. Why does it fit better? l want to be able to fully appreciate the handwork in my clothing. (Hoping the tailors don't mind me asking all these pesky questions).

When one tries to establish the absolute importance of a certain type of stitching, or the make of a buttonhole, there is a limit to the applicability of the comparison. For instance, a handsewn seem of say, an armhole or a shoulder, should normally wear and live much better than a machine-made one.

.

Why is that Martin? Why is a [correctly sewn] armhole or shoulder better done by hand? Why will it be more durable? lt'll be interesting to hear this from a tailor himself.

[Martin Stall]

Iammatt,

Indeed, this is big part of what set me off on this mission, to establish for myself, what are the important elements to be done by hand, what is good hand work, can I learn to spot it easily and what can be done better by machine.

They're the two big questions aren't they.

1. What elements NEED to be done by hand [instead of machine work] to make a better fitting coat/jacket ?
2. What elements of suit making are better done by machine?

Something else l would like to ask is: what is the advantage of a hand sewn collar over a machine sewn collar? Please don't tell me `it just fits better'. Why does it fit better? l want to be able to fully appreciate the handwork in my clothing. (Hoping the tailors don't mind me asking all these pesky questions).

When one tries to establish the absolute importance of a certain type of stitching, or the make of a buttonhole, there is a limit to the applicability of the comparison. For instance, a handsewn seem of say, an armhole or a shoulder, should normally wear and live much better than a machine-made one.

.

Why is that Martin? Why is a [correctly sewn] armhole or shoulder better done by hand? Why will it be more durable? lt'll be interesting to hear this from a tailor himself.

1. Handsewing doesn't necessarily improve the fit. In some parts, such as the collar, it does. Nothing NEEDS to be done by hand (eh?? are you on drugs, Martin?) which is an apropriately confusing statement I hope, leading me to your second question:
2. There is no way to determine a priori what should or should not be machined. It depends on so many things. Sure, there is the budget one has for a suit: some people want a good fit at a good price. Hence there are tailors who make that: lots of machine work er even fusing. No problem: It's what the client wanted, and it's what he payed for.
A certain type of wearer might feel that a machined trouser seem is more durable. He might be right, given the type of wear and cloth he is used to. He might be wrong too, but still want it that way. Then the tailor needs to advise, if desired.
The point is that each cloth, cutter, tailor, customer, type of usage, even climate, is different. If a bespoke suit is seen as an item that includes all possible aspects, these aspects are all constantly fluctuating. So to determine off-hand: everything must always be done in such-and-such a way, is to actually rationalize the bespoke experience, it's like turning it into a MTM or RTW process. Standard procedures, fixed-width trimmings, any desired colour blue button provided it's navy. Bleh.

Perhaps a client will ask for his armholes to be sewn by use of a machine, because he prefers the look or the feel. "No sir", says the tailor, "that would be illegal". Ill-advised maybe, yes, but I think it is very unjust to try to create a law for how the work should be done.

The whole process of buying bespoke is a constant interaction and communication between you, the tailor, and the cloth. Choices need to be made on a per-piece basis.

A colllar is better when it is sewn by hand, for one thing it will hug the neck better, another reason is that the points can be made to tend downwards, thereby eliminating the possibility that one day they will start to point upwards. I've a little ditty about it on my blog if you would like to read it: http://www.martinstall.com/index.php?op ... view&id=55

As for handsewing: It is more flexible, there will be more give in the seem. Therefore, handmade seems will allow a coat to move more comfortably with you, and will make the coat settle on you better. The stitching is also different, as is the thread. I didn't say it's by definition more durable, it actually depends both on the type of stitch and the type of thread as well. Fabric plays a part in it too.

[Guest]

Some great information Martin (as i've already told told you via P.M).

How many pieceworkers work at Oxxford? (certain tailors are stunned that a factory/huge workroom [in America] could contain so many workers doing that degree of handwork).

[Mark Seitelman]

Some great information Martin (as i've already told told you via P.M).

How many pieceworkers work at Oxxford? (certain tailors are stunned that a factory/huge workroom [in America] could contain so many workers doing that degree of handwork).

I have heard the number 180 quoted.