Marcella shirt

[Concordia]

I got my first voile shirt last year (pleated for semi-formal). It felt clingy and awful for about 5 minutes, then I just forgot all about it. A useful concept. One of these days I'll get one for daytime wear-- with double front to avoid embarrassing show-through.

[HappyStroller]

I suppose the original black tie dress shirt used by the English princes was simply the same formal shirt used for white tie at the beginning of the 20th Century.

Would the formal shirts used for white tie at [that time] have pique bib bosoms?
Or, I can imagine the early formal shirts of the 20th Century had frills similar to court dress shirts (like the shirts one imagines the Three Musketeers wear).

Also, the words pique and Marcella sound French. This seems to suggest the French were the ones who introduced the use of pique (and Marcella) on formal (white tie) and semi-formal (black tie) dress shirts, right?

Any one any idea?

[original post posted on Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:21 am]
(post edited to insert missing words [that time] in second paragraph on Sunday, February 11, 2007, 7:40 a.m., Nanjing Standard Time)

[Rudolf]

I suppose the original black tie dress shirt used by the English princes was simply the same formal shirt used for white tie at the beginning of the 20th Century.

This is exactly the case.They used the same stiff fronted shirt in the 1920s/30s for white AND black tie. The shape of the front bib was determined by the cut of the vest - many 1920s Dinner Suits vests resembled their white tie counterparts in cut (four buttons to make a quite high gorge). If you were picky in those days, you would look for the shape of the single starched cuffs: rounded edges for black, straight (or barrel) for white tie, I very much admire the looks of those dinner attires which to me are more attractive than the later (Edward VIII.) versions with a fold-down collar and an unstarched marcella front.
English shirtmakers in the 1930s offered pique, marcella, slightly striped and plain linen fronts (all starched) for their 'dress shirts' (I don't think they made the difference between semi-formal and formal). Those shirts came in 1 and 2 stud varieties, 2 stud being the more common version in England (as I have explained).
To chose a french cuff for a semi-spred fold-down collar is absolutely correct. The single stud bib I would like to see once you wear it without being heavily starched (which I think inappropriate because of the collar/double cuff) and a low-gorge vest.

[Rudolf]

Sorry, entered the post twice.

[HappyStroller]

I must apologise to Concordia for attributing to him the report that a tailor called the French front a black tie front. Actually Concordia was referring to the non-Placket front (using studs which can be seen) only. The French front, I've found out, is the non-Placket type fly, with the buttons hidden under the shirt front. I also apologise to the tailor/s concerned, and to everyone else if I had mislead or confused him.

Well, I have just commissioned a Marcella shirt with the following:-

a. Marcella semi-spread collar;
b. Marcella French cuffs;
c. Marcella bib;
d. No placket;
e. Single stud; and,
f. White viole body and sleeves.
...<snip>...
I hope it's also not a mistake not to have the placket since Concordia mentioned a tailor calling the French front a black tie front. Perhaps French cuffs go with French front?

[Concordia]

I'm getting a bit confused by this myself.

In my own disordered mind, there are two basic types of front on a "dress" shirt (i.e., one worn with evening dress):

"Black tie" front, in the words of my own shirtmaker. This shows studs and has a placket such as is found on a normal American business shirt or OCBD. The pleated or reinforced bib often but not always runs down to the bottom of the front shirt tail. Here's an example: http://www.newandlingwood.com/product.php?id=82 This is what I'd thought I was ordering last October.

"White tie" front, also my shirtmaker's term. Visible studs but no placket, just a simple overlap from one half of the shirt over the other. The bib stops a little below the waistline.

Variations would be a placket with concealed buttons; I suppose one could also cook up a placketless front with no studs showing.

I trust I make myself obscure.

[HappyStroller]

Rudolf, it is wonderful of you to respond with valuable historical facts to my post which was merely based on a logical arrangement of conjectures.

So there's another sartorial application of the word 'gorge', which I assume you mean the valley between and created by the lapels. How very appropriate. I only knew of the space between the collar and notch lapel was refered to as the gorge. Thanks.

The most interesting fact in your post was about the shape of the single cuffs: rounded edges for black, straight (or barrel) for white tie. I suppose both black tie and white tie shirts which had single cuffs had detachable collars?

One of my previous questions relate to the corner of the French cuff; whether it should be rounded or straight. Your report that rounded edges (which I shall assume you were actually referring to rounded corners) were regarded as very suitable for black now makes me more comfortable with my choice of rounded corners for the French cuffs on the Marcella shirt I recently commissioned.

I was really wondering about whether the rounded corner French cuff was really a French cuff because there's a Brooks Brothers Spring brochure with a display of cuffs for shirts in general. The French cuff shown had right-angled corners; whereas the barrel cuffs shown had rounded corners. Perhaps Brooks Brothers do not really reflect classical English tailoring terms as I am now quite aware Brooks Brothers are more related to American WASP/Ivy League/Trad dressing style; e.g., 2-buttoned jacket sleeves for many years were a BB feature, so I hear. And, of course, their Repp ties slope the wrong way.

I suppose the original black tie dress shirt used by the English princes was simply the same formal shirt used for white tie at the beginning of the 20th Century.

This is exactly the case.They used the same stiff fronted shirt in the 1920s/30s for white AND black tie. The shape of the front bib was determined by the cut of the vest - many 1920s Dinner Suits vests resembled their white tie counterparts in cut (four buttons to make a quite high gorge). If you were picky in those days, you would look for the shape of the single starched cuffs: rounded edges for black, straight (or barrel) for white tie, I very much admire the looks of those dinner attires which to me are more attractive than the later (Edward VIII.) versions with a fold-down collar and an unstarched marcella front.
English shirtmakers in the 1930s offered pique, marcella, slightly striped and plain linen fronts (all starched) for their 'dress shirts' (I don't think they made the difference between semi-formal and formal). Those shirts came in 1 and 2 stud varieties, 2 stud being the more common version in England (as I have explained).
To chose a french cuff for a semi-spred fold-down collar is absolutely correct. The single stud bib I would like to see once you wear it without being heavily starched (which I think inappropriate because of the collar/double cuff) and a low-gorge vest.

[HappyStroller]

Dear Concordia

Are you the inventor of the first double-breasted shirt?

I got my first voile shirt last year (pleated for semi-formal). It felt clingy and awful for about 5 minutes, then I just forgot all about it. A useful concept. One of these days I'll get one for daytime wear-- with double front to avoid embarrassing show-through.

[dopey]

Dear Concordia

Are you the inventor of the first double-breasted shirt?

I got my first voile shirt last year (pleated for semi-formal). It felt clingy and awful for about 5 minutes, then I just forgot all about it. A useful concept. One of these days I'll get one for daytime wear-- with double front to avoid embarrassing show-through.

Concordia's shirtmaker often makes voile shirts with a double front (meaning two layers of fabric). The two layers are joined at the top, side and placket seams, but not at the bottom, so they sort of float. The double layer is because the voile is very sheer and can otherwiae be seen through. I am pretty sure that is what Concordia means by "double front".

[HappyStroller]

Hi, dopey

Thank you for the clarification of double front.

Here is a sketch of what I am thinking of as a double-breasted shirt:-



Of course, variations as to number and arrangement of buttons or studs, presence of placket or French fly, type of collar and cuffs, design of the double-breasted portion, etc., are possible.

Dear Concordia

Are you the inventor of the first double-breasted shirt?

I got my first voile shirt last year (pleated for semi-formal). It felt clingy and awful for about 5 minutes, then I just forgot all about it. A useful concept. One of these days I'll get one for daytime wear-- with double front to avoid embarrassing show-through.

Concordia's shirtmaker often makes voile shirts with a double front (meaning two layers of fabric). The two layers are joined at the top, side and placket seams, but not at the bottom, so they sort of float. The double layer is because the voile is very sheer and can otherwiae be seen through. I am pretty sure that is what Concordia means by "double front".

[HappyStroller]

A formal full dress DB shirt for White Tie, with the following features:-

a. Stiff detachable wing collar;
b. Stiff detachable double-link right-angle corner single barrel cuffs;
c. Stiff detachable Marcella pique double-breasted bib bosom front panel;
d. Double-breasted, 9x6 (3 upper studs + 3 lower buttons of right breast shirt edge);
e. The 3 lower buttons on right breast are concealed within a French front (i.e., fly).

[HappyStroller]

A semi-formal half dress DB Marcella shirt for Black Tie, with the following features:-

a. Soft Marcella semi-spread point collar;
b. Soft Marcella rounded corner French cuffs;
c. Soft Marcella pique double-breasted bib bosom front panel with two side plackets;
d. Double-breasted, 9x6 (3 upper studs + 3 lower buttons of right breast placket);
e. The 3 lower buttons on right breast placket are concealed within a French front (i.e., fly).

[HappyStroller]

Is there any reason why voile material is used for the body and sleeves of the Marcella shirt?

Here is what I have always understood a Marcella shirt to be:

It is a semi-formal evening shirt, thus wearable for black tie only. It is a "middle ground" between the wing collar shirt (which is correct with the SB peak DJ) and the pleated front shirt (which is correct with any DJ). The Marcella shirt has a turndown collar made of pique (typically the diamond weave pique). It also has a front bib and double cuffs made of pique. All of the above are attached. The body and sleeves are white voile. The front takes two or three studs. There is no placket.

I like this with a DB DJ, and in fact that is how I made my favorite formal shirt.

[Algernon]

It is thin, and consequently cool & comfortable under one's dinner jacket or tailcoat.

[sartorius]

It is easy to become confused about the numerous variants in dress shirt design, and about what is "required" by convention for black and white tie functions.

I cannot claim definitive knowledge on these things, but I attend black tie functions regularly, and the occasional white tie dinner, and would suggest there are really only two fundamental considerations:

1. You can wear most shirt variants to black tie events - the more important rule is that the bowtie must be black. Those of sartorial distinction will wear a tie made of the same material as the facing on their jacket lapels and trouser braids (my own beskpoke DJ came with matching lapels, braids, tie and cummerbund).

2. White tie demands tails, and, for more formal events, white gloves (and medals, for those who possess them!). Again, there are conventions about shirt type, but I do not think this is as important as the need for a tailcoat.

Personally, I prefer marcello shirt fronts to plain or pleated, and wear marcello with both black and white tie.

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