Wing collar or fold down

[Ray]

I think this question is probably aimed at UK members as it seems there are quite clearly different rules in the states and the rest of Europe.

I have always been led to believe that, the correct form is to wear a fold down collar with black tie. A wing collar is worn with white tie, and indeed in my copy of Debrett’s it states the above, adding black tie and wing collar, in modern times has been the choice of ‘’a certain sort’’

My question is when did this change? Because at my club there are many photos from the 1920’s and 30’s all showing chaps wearing winged collars with black tie and think about TV shows like Poirott, Jeeves and Wooster etc, the same. You could say yes but they would have been wearing stiff collars, but so what we have modern day, soft versions of the same.

Could some one tell me when and why? Winged collar and black tie became the choice of ‘‘a certain sort’’ when quite clearly this has not always been the case.

Kindest Regards
Ray

[Algernon]

Well 'a certain sort' is not necessarily pejorative. In any case, Debrett's is concerned with appearing inconspicuous; hence it advises against pocket handkerchiefs, even in quite old editions. While perfectly acceptable I prefer a separate starched wing collar with evening dress of either variety. It is, technically speaking, most formal. If one is going to wear a wing collar it might as well be a proper separate one, rather than anything else masquerading as such. As far as turn-downs are concerned, I think Marcella looks best, but that is purely a personal preference. Go for the wing collar, and have a three-piece suit made with that traditional ribbed lapel facings too!

[charles]

I think a fold down collar every time.I'm sure the previous correspondent looks great but the "up" option seems to be favoured by those who wear a Dinner Jacket very rarely . What did Cary Grant wear...or James Bond..? That said , it seems the young (<40) have a love of the "up" collar...often with the tragic brightly coloured bowtie

[Algernon]

Perhaps that had something to do with the gradual rejection of starched collars that was taking place around that time, rather than any aesthetic preference?

Of course, wearing a wing collar necessitates getting a proper tie made to the correct length, as opposed to the prevalent adjustable things. Black barathea is my preference.

[Doug]

My understanding is that the wings of a to-attach wing collar should sit behind the bow tie, and should be wider than the bow tie. The collars I have seen recently seem not to fold down sufficiently to do this properly, and tend not to be wide enough. Has someone found a good source for collars of the right shape and proportion?

[BirdofSydney]

If my memory serves me correctly, Dinner Suits came into use a few decades before turndown collars became common. I believe the Duke of Windsor was the first to wear them together while he was Prince of Wales, whereas the DJ was heralded by his father, when he himself was Prince.

I should be grateful if anyone can confirm these approximate dates or correct me as needed.

[Ray]

Hi

If I understand correctly what you’re saying it was simply that when dinner suits were first worn we generally didn’t wear fold down collars. But can you shed light on when or why in certain circles the wing collar with black tie seems to have become some what of a faux pas. When quite clearly a relatively short time ago it was the choice of Kings and Princes, in fact if you Goggle Prince Charles all black tie pics are with fold down collars.

[Sator]

Personally I have come to see it as a terrible shame that stand-up collars should be disparaged. Traditionally they are considered more formal - hence they are still worn with full dress proper ie white tie.

The reason why turn down collars became acceptable with "informal dinner clothes" aka "black tie" is precisely because of that: it is informal dress for small private gatherings for dinner and the like. The following chart dates from the English magazine Fashion:



In other words wearing a turn down collar with a dinner suit is only as acceptable as notched lapels on a dinner jacket - which of course they are:



After all notched lapels (like turn down collars) are more informal - perfectly in keeping with the quite casual character of black tie.

The real faux pas is that people wear dinner suits as though they were formal dress ie to balls, fund raising events etc. Americans even wear them during the day.

I believe that if you are forced to commit this dreadful faux pas of wearing black tie to a 'formal' event you should do so with a coat sporting peaked lapels and a stand-up collar in order to make the dress as faux-formal as possible.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

[Ray]

So what we’re saying is, this has come about for no other reason than a general dumbing down of formality if you like. I suppose women have endured the same fate with the introduction at supposedly formal occasions of those ghastly little black dresses.

Well this has somewhat annoyed me and I for one will be bucking the trend and this weekend, will be visiting my shirt maker.

[Sator]

Anther specious objection raised against stand-up winged collars is that the wings can sit awkwardly in front of the bow tie. Alan Flusser is the one most responsible for this unfortunate piece of advice.

Let us examine his argument for a moment:



In the text he claims they make wearers look like "mad scientists; with one twist of the head and the collar's limp, diminutive points tend to roll over the bow tie". He calls it a "mutt of a garment if there ever was one". To his credit he admits that in the days of detachable collars it was possible for the wear to find the stand-up collar of the appropriate shape and height.

Still, he is simply way too critical of stand-up collars. Yes, cheap and nasty stand-up collars are a disaster. Then again so are cheap polyester turn down collars.

One of the more notable things about full dress in the late Victorian to Edwarian periods is that they always wore what I can only call a full stand-up collar without wings:



They wear this type of full stand-up collar with more informal dress as well - informal dinner clothes and lounge suits included:



However, it is more common to see wing collars with more informal dress:

In other words, even wing collars are a half-way house between a full stand-up collar and a turn down collar. When you do see wings they were often very small and well out of the way of the bow tie by virtue of the greater height on the collars:







Here is an example where the wings are pointed sideways to keep it out of the way of the bow:



So as long one bespeaks ones shirts with a collar of the appropriate proportions stand-up collars (whether detachable or attached) can still be as elegant as they ever were.

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum

[Algernon]

Quite! Wing collars should be reclaimed by elegant dressers. As seperate wing collars are still easily obtainable (N&L or Budd) there is no reason why one shouldn't go the whole way and wear the real article. They look incomparably better.

[Ray]

Does the chap in the wedding photo really have a double cuff and cuff links / button type affair on his dinner jacket ?

[Algernon]

I would think they are more likely to be heavily starched single cuffs with links.

[alden]

Ray,

This is an enjoyable thread and the illustrations are great. (Thanks to all who have contributed.)

Now I have to break the news: fold down collar with a DJ, wing collar with white tie. Debretts had it right all along.

Now my reasons have nothing to do with the rules, they have to do with aesthetics. Whenever I see a wing collar on a DJ, I look instinctively down for the tails that are not there. It creates an imbalance. The higher collar needs the balance from the extending tails to work. If not, the overall image is top heavy, out of balance.

M Alden

[Nabu]

My first post here, I have been an interested lurker for quite some time trying to work up the nerve to post. Here goes!

It's my understanding, that the type of collar depends on the kind of shirt. Originally DJ was worn with the same shirt as the tailcoat, only with black bowtie and waistcoat. The "modern" version (introduced by the Duke of Windsor I believe) with the pleated front should however have a fold down collar..