Bugelli's shirt arrived!

[Guest]

I am not sure how many of you have actually had Bugelli make you a shirt, so I will report on the shirt he made for me. Please forgive the trivial details which will be important to some.

I called him and requested solid cottons in pink, orange and cream. He sent samples by courier, which arrived very quickly, maybe 3 days. I had already sent him a shirt from Jantzen that fits me very well. This cost 50 dollars and took 2 days. We discussed the shirt. I asked for a "Florentine style" shirt, whatever that implied. He noted that the collar of the shirt I sent him was too high for my height.

I received the shirt after 2 weeks I think. It does not fit, surprisingly, I think because he copied the measurements correctly and then added darts to the back. He made changes in the sizes of collar and cuffs, I think to allow for my 5'8 1/2" height. The only extra-cost option I specified were thick MOP in place of his perfectly acceptable standard MOP ones. He offered a variety of extra-cost construction options that I did not understand, and I skipped those, related to the method of construction (machine versus hand-stitched). So presumably the shirt was mostly machine-constructed, which means nothing to me one way or the other.

I have said to people that a trouser maker Michael helped me find makes pants that make Incotex pants look like rags (and I believe Incotex makes the best RTW pants). I would not go so far with Bugelli's shirt and Barba, which Bugelli agrees, makes the best RTW Italian shirt. But that Bugelli's shirt is on a different plane than anything I have ever seen, is not in doubt. I am no connoisseur of garments or shirts. And pace Manton, I am unsure what "rules" there are in the realm of shirts. But what leaps at me is the shear beauty of the shirt's construction, such that I do not have to email AK to ask "which is better," I can just say that this or that stitching is incredibly beautiful. At 250 euros, I would not say I got the shirt at fire sale prices, but I have to say, while I ponder the price of virtually every RTW garment I paid, somehow the price of these bespoke jewels just doesn't seem relevant. And I am a cheapskate. But I have said before, I am used to clothing's lasting for several decades, and these bespoke garments have a solidity and beauty that promises decades of beautiful wear.

Bugelli himself is similar to Centofanti in that he is passionate about his craft and willing to share his passion and knowledge in an extremely un-threatening way. Plus, there is pleasure in someone's striving to sell you what YOU want, and not what is on the shelf, which seems so self-serving with even the most benign salesman.

Were I on a budget, I would get Barba shirts for white and blue standards (or similar shirts like Carlo Franco). But for the non-white, non-blue variety, you can do no better than Bugelli, or at least this is what my imagination suggests, since I am sure there is someone just waiting to point out I have not laid eyes on EVERY shirt in creation. Or is that more likely in AAAC than here?

[RWS]

I'm always happy to read of fellow Loungers' success with craftsmen, and particularly with those in the CAP. But, please, might we see photographs of this handsome shirt?

[Guest]

With or without my overweight gut pressing against it?

[manton]

And pace Manton, I am unsure what "rules" there are in the realm of shirts.

If you want to know, David, all you have to do is ask.

[Guest]

Great, David.

I'm waiting too for my for shirt with Bugelli, so I'm very pleased of your enthusiams.

Giona.

[richardcharles]

guys, I am a little confused. My take away from the Dr. Bresch's post was that the shirt did NOT fit.While I can see that this should not be held against Mr Bugelli as making off of a sample is not the ideal means of getting measurments, the thought that the Dr. could wax poetic about somthing that presumably he will get no use out of is a bit strange to me. This leads me to the dilemna that all of us have faced. It is entirely possible to admire the workmanship of an ill fitting garment yet at the end of the day it is an ill fitting garment. On the other hands we have probably all had garments made where the maker just got it right but maybe the work ( details ) were not of the same type and quality. Which is better ?. IMHO the second is because the owner can get some use out of the garment. Make no mistake we all strive for the best of both but in the good Doctors situation that does not seem to be the case.

[Guest]

Hmmm, I think you have to do more bespoke. The shirt is beautiful, it did not fit, and I am sending it back to Bugelli, who will fix it and make the rest of my shirts. These are artisans, not magicians, and fitting is a process, not a one-shot deal.

I have not had the experiences of many with excruciating fitting experiences. Centofanti makes mistakes (if you can call them that), Bugelli makes mistakes, but they all fix them.

The people who stick you with the mistakes are the ones who are cutting their profit margin very close so that they really want you to absorb the cost of the first shirt or suit. Liste Rouge was like that, Chai in Philadelphia was like that. You get the sense that you should not even go there because they are going to make you unhappy.

[Alias]

I'm going to try Liste Rouge for shirts, because it's not easy to find good shirtmakers here in Seoul. How did the fitting process work? I understand they send you a fitting before they process the rest of your order. Did you have Centofanti help you pin the adjustments and all that?

[T4phage]

guys, I am a little confused. My take away from the Dr. Bresch's post was that the shirt did NOT fit.While I can see that this should not be held against Mr Bugelli as making off of a sample is not the ideal means of getting measurments, the thought that the Dr. could wax poetic about somthing that presumably he will get no use out of is a bit strange to me. This leads me to the dilemna that all of us have faced. It is entirely possible to admire the workmanship of an ill fitting garment yet at the end of the day it is an ill fitting garment. On the other hands we have probably all had garments made where the maker just got it right but maybe the work ( details ) were not of the same type and quality. Which is better ?. IMHO the second is because the owner can get some use out of the garment. Make no mistake we all strive for the best of both but in the good Doctors situation that does not seem to be the case.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we can all admire the workmanship of an ill fitting item... just picture the workmanship on a Kiton or Oxxford or....etc that is RTW. These will not fit you exactly sans alterations (unless by some miracle you are so very close to their fit model). As for the choice between an exquisitly made item that does not fit, or a item that fits perfectly but has less than perfect workmanship... I would, like you, opt for the latter. In beginning one's bespoke adventure, if one has the education/knowledge of how an item should fit, one would tend to try their hand with a smaller, cheaper ateliers to perfect their knowledge of fit. As such, sometimes such smaller ateliers may not have a larger staff who are specialized in certain detailing such as a person who only stitches buttonholes, etc, and thus their detailing may not be to the same level as larger, more known ateliers. From what I have heard regarding Bugelli from Giona Granata, his workmanship is exquisite.

I think in Dr. Bresch's case, he sent a shirt that fit him well, but asked for detailing/stylistic modifications that would have been better suited if he was measured by Bugelli from the outset... such as the "Florentine style".

[richardcharles]

Dr, as my wife will attest I have far more shirts than any 5 people would ever need. Personally I would not be inclined to enter a long term relationship with a maker via the mail as you are doing with Bugelli. Would I view his work on a one off, yes. My feeling is that attaining the perfect fitting garments requires a process. During this process the makers experience and skill are applied to create a garment/shirt. If there was a shorcut to be taken most of what we treasure would be able to be duplicated in lower labor cost center such as China. I also think that on your first try with your pantmaker you happened on one of the few garments ( pants ) that can be made via the process you have chosen. I think shirts and even more so jackets are too complicated to do so.

[Guest]

If Jantzen got it right then Bugelli can by copying their shirt. I honestly don't think what happened was any more than a mistake. He took the measurements, copied them, then added darts for style, which made the trunk too tight.

So far as by-mail interactions, I think I lose something that is true, but I really enjoy the bespoke pants I had made, in fact they have solved a lot of wardrobe problems I had because of the way he presented me selections of swatches to peruse, and I expect I will enjoy Bugelli's creations. Some people have successfully received jackets through the mail (vis Terry with Chan). I am not secure enough to try this, and I am too happy with Centofanti. If there were craftsmen like Bugelli or my pantsmaker in Philadelphia, I would patronize them of course. And things are not black and white. I will see Bugelli eventually either when he comes to the USA or when I go to Italy, and he can see his creations on me and make suggestions.

[tteplitzmd]

I have followed the correspondence on remote shirtmaking with interest. I have an appointment with Mr.Bugelli in July when I will be in Florence. IMy best thought about remote craftsmen is to start with an in person visit, inperson follow up if necessary, but once it is right, if there is a paper pattern, etc., remote ordering works well.

Some of us have studied anatomy and can be reasonably articulate about what is wrong, easing the evolution of the goods. I do think it is an evolutionary process not suited to one-off ordering. That being said, once the goods are to my satiisfaction I think you can get a product replicated. A variant on this theme is my taking to Hong Kong a NY bespoke jacket, they actually improved on it when I asked for replication. Curiously with a topcoat, they failed in replication. So, ultimately I think it depends on the skills and motivation of the artisan and client.

[Guest]

To be absolutely clear, I agree with Richard that having an artisan close to home is a more fulfilling experience. I probably miss a lot by ordering at a distance from "my" pants maker and "my" shirt maker. Were I in NYC, I might have made different choices. Alden has waxed poetic about trousers and I have to agree, they make or break your wardrobe. I probably would have patronized the fabric stores that are now offering trousers like Tip Top, the key being that one can pick a fabric with exactitude to match other garments. I think each of us has different circumstances and we make the best of it.

[tteplitzmd]

Further reflections on "remote bespoke." Unstated in all of this is what I believe is an important part of the bespoke experience: I call it the "foreplay." This step is lacking in remote bespoke, at least on subsequent orders. I usually know what I want and if the product has been perfected previously, I don't need the shop talk or club chair.

I think that most of us vicariously consider the foreplay integral to the experience. However, I must say, that if you keep your eye on the ball, and are happy with the end product, and it has been replicated before, and if you have not changed weight, etc.,
remote bespoke can work.

I am not interested in tales of Olde England at this stage of my life. If the artisan or specialist is truly knowledgable (often not the case) then I can learn something. Often the shop talk has been a subterfuge for the artisan/merchant to avoid doing what I ask.

So, I actually am a fan of remote bespoke, and starting with a Jantzen (Hong Kong) shirt and having it emulated or improved on by Bugelli makes a lot of sense to me.

Terry A. Teplitz

[richardcharles]

David, and all members in the New york area, I would encourage each of you to visit Tip Top Superfine Fabrics in Greenpoint. In my oppinion used in conjunction with the limited edition undertakings of the LL it offers a great variety of high quality woolens. There are no Czars to be found on premise just a couple of enterprising guys from Poland who have created a great niche. The reference to czars is a NY thing. In my oppinion the selection of the cloth is part of the process of having somthing made. I don't ask my pantmaker for swatches nor do I ask my shirtmaker for swatches. I would encourage you David to swim upstream in the process it is far more rewarding in the end to have reviewed the multitude of options and made a decision based on what you like. I must say Centoanti had a large selection of cloth at his disposal. The one thing you will not find in his cloth choices is the brown POW that was ready for a final fitting ( the cloth club commission ).