The Line between MTM and Bespoke Shirts

[SouthPender]

We routinely define a MTM shirt as one in which the client’s measurements are applied to a pre-existing pattern, with a good-fitting shirt—although one identical to others made on the same pattern—the result. A Bespoke shirt, on the other hand, is unique, in that an original pattern is constructed on the basis of the client’s measurements and also his preferences vis-à-vis proportions and cut. (I hope I have that right.)

What manner of animal, however, are we dealing with when the client is measured, and his preferences for various dimensions (indexing slimness vs. fullness, for example) are recorded and incorporated by modifying an existing pattern to accommodate them? Further, the client specifies a particular kind of collar, a choice of front, cuffs, back pleats, hem treatment, button positioning, pocket vs. no pocket, size and kind of buttons, and so on. It seems that many small and local chemisiers must operate in this fashion, since it would seem to be the most logical way to translate a set of measurements into a finished shirt.

Is this what most chemisiers label bespoke? Where would you draw the line, or, put another way, what would have to be present in the process to regard the finished product a bespoke shirt?

[Ed]

A true bespoke shirt involves the creation of a sample/trial (perhaps muslin)
shirt and as many fitted try-ons as necessary to get the fit
right.

Without the try-ons, the shirt is MTM or custom.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

A true bespoke shirt involves the creation of a sample/trial (perhaps muslin)
shirt and as many fitted try-ons as necessary to get the fit
right.

Without the try-ons, the shirt is MTM or custom.

With a solitary exception, Ed's analysis is correct. The sole difference between "bespoke" and "custom" is hemispheric symantics. In the Eastern hemisphere, bespoke shirts are termed bespoke. In the Western hemisphere, bespoke shirts are usually referred to as custom. It is solely since the advent of the online fora that folks in the Western hemisphere have begun widespread use of the traditionally British term, bespoke.

A portion of my introductory letter to new clients may flesh it out a bit:

At our first meeting, measurements are taken and styling determined through an intensive discussion. I then design and strike your individual paper pattern from which I cut a try-on shirt. A week or two later, faster if necessary, we meet again for you to try on this laundered sample. This is not a shirt you keep; it is merely for pattern corrections. You criticize, we criticize and pin-fit. We alter your pattern and, a few days later, send over a real shirt. This you wear for a day or two thus insuring that you like everything about it. The fitting steps prior to the "real shirt" are repeated and repeated if necessary. Once your pattern has been finalized - and only then - we cut your order. We are not interested in one-time clients. Perfecting your pattern is absolutely essential. After that, you literally never need see us again to order shirts as we have your pattern and shall gladly furnish swatches by mail. FYI, our definition of Custom/Bespoke differs somewhat from those shirtmakers who custom-size one of their standard designs. We don't do that. Each client's pattern begins as a blank paper, not an alterable template. Our definition is simple: "'Bespoke' means exactly what the client wants it to mean". Yes, we have the temerity to opine when we believe the client's choice is lacking in expertise ... but it is not we who decide. It is you.

What will we do? As far as shirts, blouses, or furnishings, virtually anything. We will design originals (our preference), copy your old favorites, or work from photos or sketches

[SouthPender]

Alex and Ed, that's very helpful. Now that I think about it a little more, what we seem to have vis-a-vis descriptive terms here is really a continuum--running from the kind of intensive, truly bespoke, process described by Alex all the way over to RTW. At some point in the continuum, we dichotomize it, deciding to refer to that part of it near RTW as MTM and that part near the Kabbaz pole as bespoke. My question sought to identify the point at which the dichotomy occurs.

I think that the process used by online shirtmakers like Janzen is very clearly MTM. With it, you merely send your measurements (albeit taken carefully) to the shirtmaker, who then modifies an existing pattern to try to produce a good fit, with the resulting shirt being sent back through the mail. We have local MTM programs through menswear stores (like Zegna) in which the measurements are taken by local sales people (who vary widely in their ability to do this accurately). These measurements are then sent to some shirtmaker, with the result being sent back upon completion. In neither case, is the person actually doing the cutting and stitching present when the fitting (such as it is) is being done.

I'm interested in an intermediate process in which the measurements are taken by the shirtmaker and some adjustments are possible before final delivery. I suspect that most of the operations that offer this process actually use some kind of template with one's measurements, rather than the full start-with-a-blank-slate approach described by Alex. Still, much more customization can be accommodated than by the long-distance MTM operations. What's missing is the several fittings done to get the pattern exactly right (or as close to that as possible) and the blank-slate pattern production. I'm guessing about how the pieces of the shirt are actually produced in this case, as none of the local shirtmakers will describe the procedure for me! I have assumed, as noted though, that the measurements are simply applied to some sort of template. Nonetheless, many details can be accommodated, such as the shape and size of collars and cuffs, button material, size, and location, body taper, special linings, and so on.

In the end, it is really semantics, I guess. Perhaps we need a term for an intermediate category--one falling in the middle of the continuum. Could we use "custom" (in both hemispheres) for this? Perhaps "made-to-order" would be better.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Codifying a term for the various in-betweens is an untenable proposition, for the methods of accomplishing "Made-to-Measure" vary all over the map. All M-T-M makers use a basic pattern, usually a standard size. 15 1/2 is the most common size and it is normally accompanied by a 40" chest.

How this pattern is adapted to the wearer varies widely. In most cases, the pattern is traced onto the cloth and then alterations are made to the drawn lines. This is usually done using notes (i.e. "reduce rear waist by 3 inches"). In that case, here would be the basic pattern:



and here would be the drawn alteration:



As you can see, depending upon the particular person doing the drawing that day, the curve might not necessarily be the same.

Sometimes the basic pattern is in a computer which drives a laser cutter and the change is input on a keyboard. Other shops will do it by tracing their basic pattern onto Kraft paper, making the changes, and then keeping the paper on file for you.

There are many, many ways. Sometimes a layup of 800 15 1/2 standard shirts are cut. Then your six cloths are pulled free from the layup and your waist is trimmed. There are probably as many different ways as there are mass-production M-T-M shops.

Of two things you can be sure.

1] Except in the case of the shop which traces ALL of the individual pattern parts onto paper and keeps those on file for you, every time you return for shirts they will be different.

2] Absolutely NONE of the foregoing methods yields a Custom Made Shirt ... or a Bespoke Shirt. The sole difference between those terms is semantics, not method. Any maker claiming otherwise is pulling the cotton over your eyes.

[SouthPender]

Thanks, Alex. That really takes away some of the mystery of how MTM works. In bespoke, then, I see that you would actually draw the pattern from scratch, following this with the muslin or cotton try-on shirt. And then further revisions to the pattern would be made via the subsequent fittings, thus resulting in a pattern for the client that was as perfect a fit as was possible. Would this same pattern be used on all subsequent shirts that you made for the client, or would the choice of fabric and perhaps style of the shirt require a new pattern evolving through the same process as before? And is the process you follow the standard everywhere for bespoke shirts? To avoid the problem of getting a different shirt every time from what is essentially a MTM shirtmaker, it appears that the client should insist on the pattern being kept on file for future shirts.

A related question I had about the MTM and bespoke shirtmaking process had to do with the extent to which the actual stitching was a discriminating factor between good and bad results. Or is it the case that once the pieces are cut from the pattern (and assuming that this would normally be done carefully), the resulting shirt will look pretty much the same regardless of the particular seamstress operating the sewing machine? That is, are individual differences in stitching ability and performance pretty minor? If this were true, it would seem that it would be primarily (perhaps almost solely) on the matter of goodness-of-fit that MTM and bespoke would differ--not to suggest for one minute that this isn't a very important variable, perhaps the most important.

[Mulberrywood]

The sole difference between "bespoke" and "custom made" is hemispheric symantics. In the Eastern hemisphere, bespoke shirts are termed bespoke. In the Western hemisphere, bespoke shirts are usually referred to as custom. It is solely since the advent of the online fora that folks in the Western hemisphere have begun widespread use of the traditionally British term, bespoke.

I completely agree with Alex. Our custom made / bespoke tie making is based in Denver and with the exception of a few British expats and those who have spent time in England, (or online clothing forums) everyone in Colorado uses the term "custom made".

For us the essence of "custom made" or " bespoke" is the listening process. What does our client want: Length, width, shape, weight, texture, colors etc. We make a pattern from scratch but this is only one small part of the bespoke process and not the defining one.

Sometimes we have to work with a client to design and weave a silk from start to finish. We have to understand whether their current tie length is with a thinner tie (Hermes as an example) and how the length of their new tie needs to be adjusted, (usually longer all things being equal)

So in the end a MTM tie requires some basic standardised input and often is all that is needed, while a bespoke tie requires a great deal of listening and interaction. This listening and interacting is what defines "custom made" or "bespoke".

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Would this same pattern be used on all subsequent shirts that you made for the client, or would the choice of fabric and perhaps style of the shirt require a new pattern evolving through the same process as before?

Different styles of shirt usually require different patterns. The fitting process is much less intensive because one (supposedly) already has the basic body shape down pat.

And is the process you follow the standard everywhere for bespoke shirts?

Yes ... in all three places which still make real bespoke.

To avoid the problem of getting a different shirt every time from what is essentially a MTM shirtmaker, it appears that the client should insist on the pattern being kept on file for future shirts.

Good luck! If that isn't their standard system it won't be a'happening.

A related question I had about the MTM and bespoke shirtmaking process had to do with the extent to which the actual stitching was a discriminating factor between good and bad results. Or is it the case that once the pieces are cut from the pattern (and assuming that this would normally be done carefully), the resulting shirt will look pretty much the same regardless of the particular seamstress operating the sewing machine? That is, are individual differences in stitching ability and performance pretty minor? If this were true, it would seem that it would be primarily (perhaps almost solely) on the matter of goodness-of-fit that MTM and bespoke would differ--not to suggest for one minute that this isn't a very important variable, perhaps the most important.

In the best of bespoke processes, one person sews the shirt. In the M-T-M process, 52 people, termed a "set", sew the shirt. That should answer the question with finality.
.

[Gruto]

Does bespoke imply that the cutter takes the measurements? And back in the old days, was it not so that the guy who took the measurements was the guy who did the cutting and the cutter the guy who did the sewing?

Regards,
Gruto

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Does bespoke imply that the cutter takes the measurements? And back in the old days, was it not so that the guy who took the measurements was the guy who did the cutting and the cutter the guy who did the sewing?

Regards,
Gruto

Cutter is defined quite differently depending upon geography and other factors. In the U.S., for example, the cutter is the person who takes the pattern created by the patternmaker and uses it to cut the cloth which is then passed on to the sewer who may be a tailor or a seamstress.

In the U.K., the cutter is the person who takes the measurements and uses them to create the client's pattern. What happens after that varies widely from shop to shop.

In small, entrepreneural enterprises, each may have a different definition of the various personnel terms. In the better (shirt) shops, the person who meets with the client, takes measurements, and discusses styling is also the person who makes the pattern and does the fittings until the sample is perfect. He is usually not the person who sews the shirt ... but is normally capable of so doing.

Though Manton or Alden may know better, my suspicion is thus: Back on days of old, it was quite common (and still often done as a test of expertise) for a good maker to pick up cloth and shears, look at the client, and cut. No meaurements. No pattern. Just by eye. That, logically, would encompass all of the various definitions of the word 'cutter' and why it means what it does. This, by the way, was the method taught to me by an old Egyptian man who cut for me for many years before his passing. For you makers out there - it's really a lot of fun! Give it a try sometime. Eyes. Shears. Cloth. Client. Needle. Garment.

[Gruto]

Though Manton or Alden may know better, my suspicion is thus: Back on days of old, it was quite common (and still often done as a test of expertise) for a good maker to pick up cloth and shears, look at the client, and cut. No meaurements. No pattern. Just by eye. That, logically, would encompass all of the various definitions of the word 'cutter' and why it means what it does. This, by the way, was the method taught to me by an old Egyptian man who cut for me for many years before his passing. For you makers out there - it's really a lot of fun! Give it a try sometime. Eyes. Shears. Cloth. Client. Needle. Garment.

Which make me think: How important is it that one makes a paper pattern "from scratch"? It seems that larger English shirtmakers use more tools than a pencil, cf. http://www.englishcut.com/collar%20patterns.JPG. Do these tools prevent the cutter to individualize the paper pattern?

[Gruto]

If the tools/the wood pieces disturb the drawing of a unique pattern, will not the fitting proces adjust the small mistakes caused by the wood pieces' "standardization effect"?