When a tailor retires...

[Cantabrigian]

In the past month or so I have had the opportunity to meet or speak with two excellent bespoke artisans. I am excited to work with each but there is a nagging thought that somewhat tempers my excitement: one is old enough to be my father and the other is old enough to be my grandfather. That would not be so bad were it not for the fact that they each run their own shop single-handedly and neither has an heir-apparent.

I do not know either well enough to ask but I am left wondering what it is artisans and tailors do when they decide to retire.

I imagine that they would want to extract some value from the business they have spent a lifetime cultivating - lists of satisfied clients, a reputation, etc. not to mention a workroom, materials and tools. And I would imagine that each has thought about where their clients will go after they hang up their shears.

But from all external indications, the businesses these men have either built or managed will simply cease with them.

What usually happens? Are businesses generally sold to a maker of similar quality? Are they inherited by children who may or may not have any interest in the business?

Is there some established etiquitte for transitioning from one maker to another?

[Arpey]

In the past month or so I have had the opportunity to meet or speak with two excellent bespoke artisans. I am excited to work with each but there is a nagging thought that somewhat tempers my excitement: one is old enough to be my father and the other is old enough to be my grandfather. That would not be so bad were it not for the fact that they each run their own shop single-handedly and neither has an heir-apparent.

I do not know either well enough to ask but I am left wondering what it is artisans and tailors do when they decide to retire.

I imagine that they would want to extract some value from the business they have spent a lifetime cultivating - lists of satisfied clients, a reputation, etc. not to mention a workroom, materials and tools. And I would imagine that each has thought about where their clients will go after they hang up their shears.

But from all external indications, the businesses these men have either built or managed will simply cease with them.

What usually happens? Are businesses generally sold to a maker of similar quality? Are they inherited by children who may or may not have any interest in the business?

Is there some established etiquitte for transitioning from one maker to another?

I had a wonderful tailor years ago who was a generation older than me. In anticipation of his retirement, I ordered about five bespoke suits a year for a period of three years. This was in addition to the two suits a year for the five previous years.
He retired to Florida over ten years ago without a moment’s hesitation, and we send Christmas cards to each other yearly. And, I’ve got a closet of season suits, sports coats and DJ’s to last a lifetime. It is incentive to keep the weight down and stay fit as I’ve never bought another suit since his retirement.

[JamesT1]

From what I have heard, usually if they do decide to get an apprentice, they would ease the apprentice in, letting them get to know their clients and such. Once everyone feels comfortable (apprentice, tailor, client...) than they would hand the keys over.

As for the other routes, sometimes they sell to a larger company (although this might effect their reputation) or donate their workroom supplies to schools. I'm sure that each case is different relative to the tailor, but these are the forms of which I am familiar.

[manton]

What usually happens? Are businesses generally sold to a maker of similar quality? Are they inherited by children who may or may not have any interest in the business?

Is there some established etiquitte for transitioning from one maker to another?

The business model in New York is much different than that in Europe and especially England. There are no real establishments that run along Savile Row lines. The closest might be Fioravanti. I recently tried to gingerly asked what he plans to do with his business, but it's hard to ask that question without coming off as saying "Gee, you're really old! Might die soon, eh? What then?"

Business are sometimes sold to other makers. The buyer gets the patterns, the client list, in some cases equipment, and maybe even a staff if there is one and they want to stay. However, the tailor-client relationship in New York is so personal, and there is pretty much no loyalty to a house, that most clients probably would not stick around. That makes the value of those businesses less and makes the likelihood of a sale to some other maker less likely.

Beyond that, who could a tailor sell his business to? There are not many people who know how to do this. I would bet that the only New York house that could survive the death or retirement of its founder is Fioravanti. Certainly he employs plenty of sewing tailors. Finding cutters is the hardest thing. Also, that business is so successful that someone would have to pay A LOT to get it.

Nicolosi may pass the shears to his son. Raphael and Cheo will almost certainly shut down. Logsdail too, I would venture, but he is a member here and can speak for himself. Frank is a one man band who at this point does not even have a shop. At 45, he is the baby of the bunch and should be cutting for a long time.

[TVD]

Despite my tender years, I somehow managed to get four tailors retire while I was their client. One (the first) retired due to old age, and with no heir apparent, the next because the shop was taken over and turned into a a RTW outlet, number three was offered enough money by sombody for their premises to live in luxury ever after, and finally the last because of old age again.

Strangely enough, the tradition of my first tailor is being carried on by his former employer (don't ask about the complexities) who finally saw the light and concentrates on bespoke; the last has been replaced by a young cutter at a venerable Savile Row house who admirably continues the tradition.

Do not fear! Carpe diem! Enjoy while it lasts, but have no regrets when it comes to an end. Any tailor worth their that name will finish comissions begun unless they drop dead. And that could happen to a man of any age!

[Mark Seitelman]

Yes, Frank, I too have wondered if there will be tailors in the future. And I am much older than you.

I feel that there will be skilled tailors in the future, but they will be fewer in number and more expensive. I view fine clothing as having similar fortunes to those of Broadway, the "fabulous invalid." The "fabulous invalid," who was predicted to be dead decades ago, is still alive and occasionally kicking. Just as Broadway plays and musicals are fewer in number and have evolved and changed from the great ones of ages past, the tailored suit will survive in one form or another.

Manton hit it on the head. NYC and America does not have the tailoring culture of Europe. Generally, a talented immigrant sets-up shop as a young man and eventually retires or dies in harness. In many instances he has steered his children away from the business toward more lucrative fields. There are exceptions, of course.

When a tailor retires the only thing of value that he has to sell is a customer list. The buyer of the business may make payment contingent upon the customers that are retained. The physical goods of the business, such as banged-up sewing machines, cutting tables, and cloth, have little value.

[richardcharles]

the other phenomenas that exist are the tailors who choose to work out of their houses. I am using one now who has his basement set up as a workroom. The other, prevalant one on the east coast is the tailor who retires to Florida. I know of one pondering such a move now.

[richardcharles]

the other phenomenas that exist are the tailors who choose to work out of their houses. I am using one now who has his basement set up as a workroom. The other, prevalant one on the east coast is the tailor who retires to Florida. I know of one pondering such a move now.

[Arpey]

the other phenomenas that exist are the tailors who choose to work out of their houses. I am using one now who has his basement set up as a workroom. The other, prevalant one on the east coast is the tailor who retires to Florida. I know of one pondering such a move now.

You're right. That was the key to my shifting gears in the post above. My tailor had left the high rent commercial district for a workshop in his basement, and gave notice of his intentions. He had a loyal clientelle who would travel to the suburbs for the three years of his wind-down.

[richardcharles]

interestingly the prices rarely change downward for existing clients to reflect the reduced overhead. I have several things in process with a gentleman from Toronto who works out of his house. I had some initial reservations about the comfort of visiting but once I was there ( and found the place ) it felt very normal. Giona has posted in the past about shirtmakers in Italy that work from home. I would be interested to know if this is a worlwide phenomena.

[Arpey]

interestingly the prices rarely change downward for existing clients to reflect the reduced overhead. .

And very understandable for a friend who is planning to retire within a short timeframe and live on accrued savings.

[Godfrey S.]

I have several things in process with a gentleman from Toronto who works out of his house.

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences with bespoke in Toronto. I myself find it very frustrating. The last tailor I have been truly satisfied with had a solo operation and retired a few years ago.
Harry Rosen preys on the ill informed executive and offers a good but not outstanding product for Savile Row prices; but, aside from that, there are few big names in the city.
I have heard good things about a Mr. Lee of Trend Custom Tailors, and intend to give him a call soon, perhaps you (or anyone else, for that matter) can offer some advice on him or any other good tailors in the Toronto area.

This is perhaps a bit off topic, but I'm loath to go back and paste this all into a private message.

[Mark Seitelman]

Getting back to Frank's initial question, for us clothing enthusiasts, it is as frustrating and anxiety producing looking for a new tailor as looking for a new dentist.

I used to patronize a leading store's MTM department which had its own, dedicated tailor. The tailor was excellent. He got to know me very well, and he did whatever was necessary to alter and reshape a garment. Unfortunately, he retired. I tried a suit with the new tailors, and I was disappointed. I have not returned.

In sum, tailoring is a very personal business. A retail custom clothier cannot easily sell his business to another person because the customers usually drift away. The exception appears to be Savile Row where the seller is kept-on for a good period so that the customers experience a smooth transition.

If one were to check the custom tailors mentioned in George Frazier's article on the well dressed (circa 1960), almost every NYC tailor is no longer in business (e.g., Bernard Weatherwill, Harris, Morty Sills, John Rayle, etc.) The only survivors from the Frazier era are Winston Tailors (the sons of Chipp) and Brooks Bros. (in its MTM mode rather than its bespoke department that Clark Gable used to patronize). None of the current leading lights of NYC tailoring were in business at the time (e.g., Logsdail, Cheo, Nicolosi, Raphael, etc.). In comparison, a good number of the London tailors mentioned by Frazier are still in business, such as Poole, Davies, and A & S.

Cheers.

[Arpey]

I have several things in process with a gentleman from Toronto who works out of his house.

... advice on him or any other good tailors in the Toronto area.
.

While Lou Myles, In Vaughan, does mainly OTR & MTM, they also will do bespoke.

[Leonard Logsdail]

How to sell a bespoke tailoring firm that is built on the reputation and relationship of, often, a single person is very difficult. And I'll give you a good example. When Henry Stewart died I was given his mailing list by oneof his tailors. I did not even look at this list for about two years. I figured that was about the time it took for me not to have to fight with a ghost. His clients loved Henry. Even if I made a far superior suit at a better price, i could not fight the love they had for the man. After a couple of years, while his memory was still strong in their minds, they were ready for new clothes. He had a couple of very capable tailors who were offered the position of running the company by a couple of Henry's clients. they declined. Firstly, they were not used to taking the responsibility with the clients for anything that might go wrong, secondly they had limited language skills (a very important point) and thirdly they were used to someone else being responsible for theeir salary.

i would love to have someone walk in to my place with similar cutting skills, able to take cgarge of himself and produce an income for himself and a little for me, who I could eventually take over my business and have a time to be introduce to my clinets. I'm not ready for that person yet having, as i do, a bunch af kids, the youngest of which is only 15monthS) But I would still like to think that person is out ther somewhere. but i doubt this will ever happen and my busines, like those of many tailors present and departed, will probably just disappear.

Training is a good idea, except for the sole trader, training is too much of a drain on their time and resources. So i guess we are sealing our own fate in this respect.

My suggestions is to stock up woth suits if your tailor looks like retiring. this will give you what you want and him a nice bonus for retirement. or start looking for someone who will be around for some time to come who you think you could work with. Do a but of leg work. In the NY area it's pretty easy to find out who will be around in 15 years time. Same in London.

leonard