How far to push a tailor?

[Wakefield]

Gentlemen

A comment from Manton in the unlined spotscoat thread about being "in 'talks'" with his tailor about the lining of a coat prompted me to ask this question.

How far would you ask a tailor to deviate from his default standard?

To be clear, I am not talking about asking anyone with a clear house style to do something completely different (such as going to Dege and asking for an unstructured coat). I am thinking more of the details.

To give a personal example, I have been using the services of a local tailor for a couple of years (after a fraught search when my previous tailor retired). He has an arrangement with a local (Yorkshire) cloth merchant which means I meet him at their premises and am able to choose from hundreds of cloths on the roll or even more in swatch books. The clothes he has supplied are excellent. So far so good.

To date I have gone with his general advice on style, with one or two changes which I insist on (nothing dramatic - just the usual issues of working buttonholes, length of vents and so on). Recently, we have reached a difference of views on gorge height and lapel shape. To this point I have had my coats cut with a lapel much like the one in the photo of Gary Cooper on the introduction page to this site. I now want to try a higher gorge with a lapel notch cut with a flatter angle. My tailor seems very uncomfortable with this as he believes it will throw the balance of the coat off. He hasn't said he won't do it - but he is not happy.

At what point would you accept that you have pushed your tailor too far away from his preferred method of working and look for an alternative?

Regards
GAH

[Leonard Logsdail]

I had a very similar discussion with a gentleman last night. He is not a client of mine, but does have his clothes made at various places. he mentioned that the most comfortable suits he owns have a button placement a couple of inches higher than the suit he was wearing and that most tailors he has used say the lower positioning will work best for him. I agree with their assesment. However, after a tailor has voiced his objections to a clients wishes based on his experience, the tailor should also accept thatt the suit is not his, but the clients. In other words if you want a higher gorge, which is not a difficult thing in the least to achieve, then, having said that he thinks it would not suit you, the tailor should acknowledge your preferences (after-all, you are paying for it and will be wearing it, not him) and do as you request.

I have, at times, made suits I consider to be in bad taste. But who am I to insist how a man should feel about himself in his clothes? If I am capable of constructing the suit of this man's wishes, then by alerting him to what I see as a mistake, but then creating this suit for him, I believe I have fullfilled my job well.

leonard

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Leonard is perfectly on target. I submit this from our 'new client introductory letter'.

"Our definition of Bespoke differs somewhat from those shirtmakers who custom-size one of their standard designs. We don't do that. Each client's pattern begins as a blank paper, not an alterable template. Our definition is simple: "'Bespoke' means exactly what the client wants it to mean". Yes, we have the temerity to opine when we believe the client's choice is lacking in expertise ... but it is not we who decide. It is you."

[manton]

My talks achieved a breakthrough on Saturday. The sleeves and shoulders will be lined, and the lining will sort of arc over and down the fronts to cover the canvas. But the majority of the back will be unlined. I may re-open negotiations at a later date to see if any more lining can be dispensed with.

[Étienne]

I may re-open negotiations at a later date(...)

This post made me realize how much the relationship with one's tailor is akin to the relationship with one's spouse.

[Prince Barry]

Some excellent responses from true professionals.

By the way Mr Wakefield, I thought that I was the only Yorkshireman on here.

[Metcalfe]

I have, at times, made suits I consider to be in bad taste. But who am I to insist how a man should feel about himself in his clothes? If I am capable of constructing the suit of this man's wishes, then by alerting him to what I see as a mistake, but then creating this suit for him, I believe I have fullfilled my job well.

leonard

I'd be curious to hear Leonard's and Alex's experience with clients' subsequent orders: When a client refuses your design advice, and you execute their preference, how often does the client continue to order shirts or suits "in bad taste"? Or put another way, how often does the client recognize the value of your advice and revert to your design on subsequent orders?

Metcalfe

[Despos]

If the approach is a collaborative one, a client’s input is invaluable and welcomed to create a truly individual garment. I prefer this client to one with no opinions. Hardest client to work for is one who doesn’t know what he likes. I never know if he is happy and niether does he.

When a client refuses your design advice, and you execute their preference, how often does the client continue to order shirts or suits "in bad taste"? Or put another way, how often does the client recognize the value of your advice and revert to your design on subsequent orders?

Regarding bad taste, I once made a certain individual several single and double breasted business suits with shawl collars. Watch a few interviews on ESPN and you’ll get the picture. Of this particular taste level, I have not witnessed a qenuine repentance.

[Wakefield]

Thank you all for your contributions.

Mr Logsdail, Mr Kabbaz and Mr Despos - I appreciate the view from the other side of the tape measure.

I agree that the tailor/client relationship is a more satisfying one all round when it is based on collaboration. There are a few times when I have benefitted by listening to advice which has stopped me from going down some 'adventurous' roads. I think it is important to choose a craftsman based on their skills and experience and having done so to respect those when looking for guidance. Having said that, it is also up to the client to ask the questions or make the suggestions.

I have had some vey good results from discussing and modifying ideas with a tailor. On the other hand, there is great satisfaction to be had from wearing a garment that has been produced to the tailor's blueprint and I can't help but feeling that the tailor in question has been prouder of his work on these occasions. A very fine line indeed!

Manton - Well done. Would you care to let us in on your negotiating technique? (Your next book, perhaps?)

Prince Barry - Two and counting. I believe there is at least one more resident (Carlo la Duca) amongst the members.

Regards
GAH