Suggestions for spring and summer of 1943
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This is a set of drawings that came with one of my vintage tailoring magazines, namely "Der Schneidermeister". Had completely forgotten about it until I cleaned my cutting table(which is for private use only)!
I do like this kind of fashion illustrations, so if anyone has got some more, please add!
This is the complete sheet( it's 90x62 cm or 24.4 x 35.4 inches):
Here are the segments, starting with formal wear:
The follow up is what we would today call "street wear" I guess, starting with overcoats:
This image shows the rear view:
Nothing very special, but still nice to look at, IMHO. I do enjoy looking at them, hope you do , too!
SG
I do like this kind of fashion illustrations, so if anyone has got some more, please add!
This is the complete sheet( it's 90x62 cm or 24.4 x 35.4 inches):
Here are the segments, starting with formal wear:
The follow up is what we would today call "street wear" I guess, starting with overcoats:
This image shows the rear view:
Nothing very special, but still nice to look at, IMHO. I do enjoy looking at them, hope you do , too!
SG
Yes, SG, those illustrations are attractive. But I'm puzzled: wasn't cloth rationing in effect in Germany by 1943 -- or was that implemented only later in the Second World War?
Another question; this, regarding the man wearing what looks like a white mess jacket with black cummerbund and trousers. As all other illustrations are of civil dress and not of uniform, does this sketch indicate that the ephemeral enthusiasm that resulted in the brief appearance of such short dinner jackets in the United States in the 1930s affected Germany later, or did that enthusiasm continue longer in Germany? (Or was this an attempt to ration cloth without draconian regulation?)
Another question; this, regarding the man wearing what looks like a white mess jacket with black cummerbund and trousers. As all other illustrations are of civil dress and not of uniform, does this sketch indicate that the ephemeral enthusiasm that resulted in the brief appearance of such short dinner jackets in the United States in the 1930s affected Germany later, or did that enthusiasm continue longer in Germany? (Or was this an attempt to ration cloth without draconian regulation?)
Certainly there would have been rationing, but one could have bought some sort of clothing.RWS wrote:Yes, SG, those illustrations are attractive. But I'm puzzled: wasn't cloth rationing in effect in Germany by 1943 -- or was that implemented only later in the Second World War?
I'm always amazed by what could and couldn't happen during the War. One of the creepier relics I've seen is a violin played by a friend of mine. Made by someone quite obscure, probably even then. But the label says "Berlin 1944." Somehow that doesn't square with the newsreels we've all seen.
As a former historian (though of earlier times than the twentieth century), I know that German authorities waited as long as possible (perhaps, from their later perspective, too long) to implement any measures that would unsettle the complaisance of the civilian population: little rationing or constraint on travel, for example, 'til 1944. But, somehow, this just strikes me as incongruous -- much as illustrations of Parisian haute couture in the same year -- particularly when contrasted with British and even American rationing of cloth (short skirts, no waistcoats, etc.) at the same time.
You're right, of course, Concordia: history -- life -- is full of seeming incongruities and actual paradoxes. This one simply made me do a double-take.
You're right, of course, Concordia: history -- life -- is full of seeming incongruities and actual paradoxes. This one simply made me do a double-take.
The trouser cuffs seemed out of place, as well as the somewhat sporting nature of some of the clothes. Cuffs (turn-ups) were banned in England-- I remember a diary entry by Orwell lamenting the first ads after the War announcing that they were legal and available. Sportswear is another story--- I suppose even in wartime, it was possible to take short vacations in the Alps, or Black Forest, or wherever. Not everyone worked 24/7 on the assembly lines.
Was this meant to show English fashions? I expected to see some evidence of German regionalism or even just non-Anglo styling. If you told me these came from Esquire or T&C, I would have believed you.
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I'm definitely not an expert on german history during the war, but they started rationing in 1944. I own one of the first joined issues of the bigger german tailoring magazines of that time. It has only very few pages and almost no vital information for tailors. Until then, the Nazi- regime was trying to hold up the illusion of winning the war.
Despite the military conflict the british influence in men's fashion was still strong, even in Germany, I guess.
And these were suggestions for bespoke customers, who could afford the higher prices for rare materials or had their own sources for them. (The average people in the streets, with most men serving in german forces, probably wore what they already had in their closet! Some wifes had their husband's coats made into a jacket for themselves).
The short white jacket, which I have seen in a movie worn by a navy officer, was most likely meant to attract exactly that type of clientele!
.
But then, I'm not an expert!
SG
Despite the military conflict the british influence in men's fashion was still strong, even in Germany, I guess.
And these were suggestions for bespoke customers, who could afford the higher prices for rare materials or had their own sources for them. (The average people in the streets, with most men serving in german forces, probably wore what they already had in their closet! Some wifes had their husband's coats made into a jacket for themselves).
The short white jacket, which I have seen in a movie worn by a navy officer, was most likely meant to attract exactly that type of clientele!
.
But then, I'm not an expert!
SG
Thanks, SG; pretty much what I'd supposed. And, again, thanks for the attractive illustrations.
The short white jacket was a form of formal evening jacket called a mess jacket. While derived from the military kit, was briefly popular as civilian formal wear around that time.schneidergott wrote:. . .
The short white jacket, which I have seen in a movie worn by a navy officer, was most likely meant to attract exactly that type of clientele!
. . .
SG,
First of all, how is it that you have old german tailoring magazines? Did you buy them on ebay or inherited them? Also, if you have more images from those magazines, please upload them.
As dopey noted the white jacket is a mess jacket. It surprises me to see it in a fashion magazine from 1943, cause the mess jacket had gone out of fashion (although it will never come out of style) by 1936, having been common only for three years, and in fact only common in America as a summer/hot/tropical weather alternative to black tie. It was soon substituted by the white dinner jacket. But it surprises me to see it as fashion in 1943 and in Germany, which is not hot enough to require it. I've only seen two other pictures of it, available in www.blacktieguide.com and one is an Esquire illustration http://www.blacktieguide.com/History/19 ... ts_DTM.jpg and the other is a 1934 photograph http://www.blacktieguide.com/History/19 ... ropped.gif as you can see. I made the article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mess_jacket_%28civil%29 with a bit of history and style description. There are many other beautifull depictions of black tie in that webpage, both in photographs of elegant dandies and in fantastic esquire illustration (many of which aren't here in the london lounge, so its worth to look around).
Regarding style I don't think it depicts english style. Of course there is an influence, as in all of men wear for the last 200 years. But I think there is a very marked German style in these illustrations. For example, the coats of 77 to 80 aren German, and I don't say this because I'm an expert, but because of two reasons: one is that their style is neither english nor american nor french nor italian, therefore it must be its own german style, and the other is that the look they have, simple, with minimum decorations, not fitted, and practicallity for the central European weather reveals I believe its very German. Another thing that shows a marked style is the hats worn by most of the men, which are also quite peculiar. The sportswear depicted in the items 81 to 85, with belted jackets, green suit with what we call in spain 'bombacho' trousers, the one worn by 82, and 83 looks like a member of the Hitler's youth with that safari-styled shirt and shorts... I general I think its clearly a German style.
You said that if we have other old fashion images to upload them. Well I don't have any one of myself, but apart from the black tie guide webpage, there is http://www.marcguyot.com/1.aspx which is a peculiar french tailor's webpage, but has all around the webpage and specially in the archives section, lots of esquire/AA illustrations many of which I aren't arround in the lounge.[/img]
First of all, how is it that you have old german tailoring magazines? Did you buy them on ebay or inherited them? Also, if you have more images from those magazines, please upload them.
As dopey noted the white jacket is a mess jacket. It surprises me to see it in a fashion magazine from 1943, cause the mess jacket had gone out of fashion (although it will never come out of style) by 1936, having been common only for three years, and in fact only common in America as a summer/hot/tropical weather alternative to black tie. It was soon substituted by the white dinner jacket. But it surprises me to see it as fashion in 1943 and in Germany, which is not hot enough to require it. I've only seen two other pictures of it, available in www.blacktieguide.com and one is an Esquire illustration http://www.blacktieguide.com/History/19 ... ts_DTM.jpg and the other is a 1934 photograph http://www.blacktieguide.com/History/19 ... ropped.gif as you can see. I made the article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mess_jacket_%28civil%29 with a bit of history and style description. There are many other beautifull depictions of black tie in that webpage, both in photographs of elegant dandies and in fantastic esquire illustration (many of which aren't here in the london lounge, so its worth to look around).
Regarding style I don't think it depicts english style. Of course there is an influence, as in all of men wear for the last 200 years. But I think there is a very marked German style in these illustrations. For example, the coats of 77 to 80 aren German, and I don't say this because I'm an expert, but because of two reasons: one is that their style is neither english nor american nor french nor italian, therefore it must be its own german style, and the other is that the look they have, simple, with minimum decorations, not fitted, and practicallity for the central European weather reveals I believe its very German. Another thing that shows a marked style is the hats worn by most of the men, which are also quite peculiar. The sportswear depicted in the items 81 to 85, with belted jackets, green suit with what we call in spain 'bombacho' trousers, the one worn by 82, and 83 looks like a member of the Hitler's youth with that safari-styled shirt and shorts... I general I think its clearly a German style.
You said that if we have other old fashion images to upload them. Well I don't have any one of myself, but apart from the black tie guide webpage, there is http://www.marcguyot.com/1.aspx which is a peculiar french tailor's webpage, but has all around the webpage and specially in the archives section, lots of esquire/AA illustrations many of which I aren't arround in the lounge.[/img]
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- Posts: 149
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@Guille: Thank you for the links. Lovely illustrations.
My tailoring magazines are bought on Ebay and other sources for old stuff. I actually have more than 100 of them, with the majority from the 50's and 60's. Only some still contained the original fashion drawings, which usually had been in there as a sort of loose extra.
In the magazines of the 40's the drawings are only there to illustrate the patterns.
The mess jacket had a sort of, again very short, revival in the 90's(?). It was then and still called the spencer jacket. Now it can mostly be seen as a jacket worn by waiters or other service personal, not only on ships.
As for the 83, I think it's more Afrika Corps inspired than Hitler Jugend, except for the short pants, but they were probably very close in appearance. This is Erwin Rommel wearing his light beige/ crème white jacket:
Germany never had a big influence on world fashion like Great Britain, Italy or France(and through the movies the USA as well). The clothes were basically meant to last for a long time, so changes to style were small from one season to the other. But, of course, even in Germany there was some international influence on men's fashion. With different patterns and way to make the clothes they came out different, so they had another appearance. You might like to call it german style.
But then again, I'm just a tailor, not a historian and/ or fashion expert!
SG
My tailoring magazines are bought on Ebay and other sources for old stuff. I actually have more than 100 of them, with the majority from the 50's and 60's. Only some still contained the original fashion drawings, which usually had been in there as a sort of loose extra.
In the magazines of the 40's the drawings are only there to illustrate the patterns.
The mess jacket had a sort of, again very short, revival in the 90's(?). It was then and still called the spencer jacket. Now it can mostly be seen as a jacket worn by waiters or other service personal, not only on ships.
As for the 83, I think it's more Afrika Corps inspired than Hitler Jugend, except for the short pants, but they were probably very close in appearance. This is Erwin Rommel wearing his light beige/ crème white jacket:
Germany never had a big influence on world fashion like Great Britain, Italy or France(and through the movies the USA as well). The clothes were basically meant to last for a long time, so changes to style were small from one season to the other. But, of course, even in Germany there was some international influence on men's fashion. With different patterns and way to make the clothes they came out different, so they had another appearance. You might like to call it german style.
But then again, I'm just a tailor, not a historian and/ or fashion expert!
SG
Schneidergott,
I agree the look of 83 might aswell be mor afrika corps, I only said hitler's youth as an example of that type of military-influenced sportswear from the 30s/40s.
I'll be searching for magazines and will probably purchase a few, if there are valuable images I'll upload them.
The mess jacket is indeed only used by waiters, bellhoops, boat crew... And anyway it would still look bad now as hot weather black tie, if its not worn with high waisted very wide trousers as in the images from its good times, for only in that combination it is arguable to be stylish. But we are very far from returning to high waisted very wide trousers in fashion, if they ever return to it. Not that they have to return to fashion in order to be worn, but it is equally antiesthetic to wear such trousers when nowbody else does so, as wearing bad looking trousers in today's style (generally low waisted and thin). The mess jacket's origin is in the military mess dress, but is also very similar to the spencer jacket (a women's coat) and the eisenhower jacket.
I understand of course that Germany never was a style innovator nor it have much influence on western fashion. As I noted, the topcoats look very practical, of durable cloths for cold weather, and not very decorated. That is a style, even though a not very stylish style.
I'm neither a tailor nor a historian nor a fashion expert. But I have interest in them and a mind to think about them.
I agree the look of 83 might aswell be mor afrika corps, I only said hitler's youth as an example of that type of military-influenced sportswear from the 30s/40s.
I'll be searching for magazines and will probably purchase a few, if there are valuable images I'll upload them.
The mess jacket is indeed only used by waiters, bellhoops, boat crew... And anyway it would still look bad now as hot weather black tie, if its not worn with high waisted very wide trousers as in the images from its good times, for only in that combination it is arguable to be stylish. But we are very far from returning to high waisted very wide trousers in fashion, if they ever return to it. Not that they have to return to fashion in order to be worn, but it is equally antiesthetic to wear such trousers when nowbody else does so, as wearing bad looking trousers in today's style (generally low waisted and thin). The mess jacket's origin is in the military mess dress, but is also very similar to the spencer jacket (a women's coat) and the eisenhower jacket.
I understand of course that Germany never was a style innovator nor it have much influence on western fashion. As I noted, the topcoats look very practical, of durable cloths for cold weather, and not very decorated. That is a style, even though a not very stylish style.
I'm neither a tailor nor a historian nor a fashion expert. But I have interest in them and a mind to think about them.
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- Posts: 149
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@Guille: Good to see that, despite "PISA" results, there are still some young people with a mind!
And thanks again for the links. Seems you were the only one who got my intention to start this thread in the first place right: To find more of such great men's fashion illustrations.
SG
P.S.: Here is a black and white one, not from the 40's, but quite nice(1934). Nothing to argue about, just a simple suit of that time.
And thanks again for the links. Seems you were the only one who got my intention to start this thread in the first place right: To find more of such great men's fashion illustrations.
SG
P.S.: Here is a black and white one, not from the 40's, but quite nice(1934). Nothing to argue about, just a simple suit of that time.
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The pictures of vintaged German dress for gentlemen were wonderful, Sir.
I particularly liked the two outer coats with fly fronts.
The light grey outer coat with sloping side pockets particularly impresses me. Is a gentleman's version of the guard's coat similar to this in every way?
I particularly liked the two outer coats with fly fronts.
The light grey outer coat with sloping side pockets particularly impresses me. Is a gentleman's version of the guard's coat similar to this in every way?
schneidergott wrote:This is a set of drawings that came with one of my vintage tailoring magazines, namely "Der Schneidermeister". Had completely forgotten about it until I cleaned my cutting table(which is for private use only)!
I do like this kind of fashion illustrations, so if anyone has got some more, please add!
...<snipped>...
The follow up is what we would today call "street wear" I guess, starting with overcoats:
...<snipped>...
Nothing very special, but still nice to look at, IMHO. I do enjoy looking at them, hope you do , too!
SG
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