Do Turnbull and Asser make bespoke or MTM shirts

[pagean]

Gentlemen:

I recently commissioned 6 shirts from T&A. Despite the surprisingly small number of measurements they took (10-15) in total, my impression was that I was ordering 6 bespoke shirts.

However, being very new to LL and after reading a few posts today, it appears I may have simply ordered 6 expensive MTM shirts. After reading the process Alden desribes as being bespoke, I know this is not the process I wil be going through with T&A. They simply referred to 1 sample shirt with multiple adjustments made to it after 3 washes.

Thanks for any thoughts you may have

[Cufflink79]

Dear Pagean:

I have been to the T&A shop in NYC before, and have purchased only RTW shirts from them.

The NYC store like the London store offers both MTM and Bespoke. It sounds like you have had MTM done.

Here is what T&A says about their Bespoke line, by way of their website from both the USA and United Kingdom.

USA site = http://www.turnbullandasser.com/turnbul ... spoke.html

UK site = http://www.turnbullandasser.co.uk/bespoke.htm

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

PS: Welcome to the London Lounge.

[pagean]

Dear Cufflink79:

Sounds as though what I went through was what they call bespoke on their website except for the number of measurements. I sense a phone call is in order tomorrow.

Many thanks for your help on this

[Cufflink79]

Your very welcome Pagean:

When you call T&A ask them to specify if they do both MTM and Bespoke.

I have seen some T&A shirts on ebay from time to time that look Bespoke such as monograms, button down collars, and different types of cuffs etc.

Hope it all works out well for you.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[Concordia]

For shirts, I think the line between MTM and bespoke is much more porous. Which is not to say that T&A or any other shirtmaker doesn't have more than one level of service.

With respect to the NY store, even bespoke is going to be hampered by the fact that the guy taking the measurements, writing the notes, and posing you for digital photos is 3,000 miles away from the fellow doing the actual work on the shirt. But once you get past that and develop a good pattern (and many of their clients do), you will get some nice shirts out of it.

[pagean]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

I spoke to the London store this morning who assured me that a pattern has been cut for me and what I have purchased is bespoke.

Apparently MTM to T&A means altering the sleeves and collar of an existing shirt design with a minimum order of 3.

[Mark Seitelman]

A famous TV interviewer who is known for his suspenders has bought Turnbull MTM.

The cost difference betweeen MTM and bespoke is not significant. I cannot fit into a RTW Turnbull shirt, therefore, I never considered MTM. The advantage of bespoke is that once you're beyond the initial, six shirt minimum there are no minimums (or maximums ).

On the bespoke side one shirt is made. It is either adjusted or re-made, if necessary. Once it is approved, the remaining five shirts are cut pursuant to the changes in the pattern.

Good luck!

Incidentally, Simon Hobbs, formerly the manager of NYC Turnbull, has moved to head its Beverly Hills shop. In a swap, Robert, the former manager of Beverly Hills, is now in charge of NYC.

[palmer]

Dear Pagean:

I'm glad that you were able to sort out your question, and I offer the following only as a possibly amusing observation about bespoke versus MTM Turnbull & Asser shirts. Years ago, T&A offered custom shirts at Neiman Marcus. (I use the word "custom" because I don't remember the exact word or words that T&A used to describe them at the time.) You could order just about anything you wanted, including patterns that I've never seen at T&A's stores in London, New York, or Beverly Hills, and the results were pretty good.

I was wearing one of these Neiman Marcus shirts during my first visit to T&A's London shop. As I thought that I already was a bespoke customer, I asked to have a couple additional shirts made, but I learned that T&A had no record of my pattern. The gentleman with whom I spoke also noted that my shirt was unlike any he'd seen before -- and, indeed, that the collar on my shirt was much softer than anything T&A typcially made. Of course, there was a T&A label inside the shirt, and therein is perhaps a way of telling at a glance whether T&A sent you an MTM or bespoke shirt. The label inside T&A's bespoke shirts -- and as prior authors have noted, they really are bespoke -- is (or at least was) much smaller than the label found in off-the-peg and MTM specimens. Also, unlike the standard label, the bespoke label's entirely in block letters -- that is, without the script "Turnbull & Asser" that you see on the storefront, inside off-the-peg shirts or, for that matter, inside what turned out to be my MTM shirts.

The moral of this story, however, isn't about labels; it's about asking questions. To your credit, you did. The fact that I didn't -- and didn't know any better while buying shirts at Neiman Marcus -- still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I felt ripped off.

Good luck with your order. Both Simon Hobbs and Robert Salter are great guys and will steer you in the right direction.

Best regards,

[Mark Seitelman]

Dear Pagean:

I'm glad that you were able to sort out your question, and I offer the following only as a possibly amusing observation about bespoke versus MTM Turnbull & Asser shirts. Years ago, T&A offered custom shirts at Neiman Marcus. (I use the word "custom" because I don't remember the exact word or words that T&A used to describe them at the time.) You could order just about anything you wanted, including patterns that I've never seen at T&A's stores in London, New York, or Beverly Hills, and the results were pretty good.

I was wearing one of these Neiman Marcus shirts during my first visit to T&A's London shop. As I thought that I already was a bespoke customer, I asked to have a couple additional shirts made, but I learned that T&A had no record of my pattern. The gentleman with whom I spoke also noted that my shirt was unlike any he'd seen before -- and, indeed, that the collar on my shirt was much softer than anything T&A typcially made. Of course, there was a T&A label inside the shirt, and therein is perhaps a way of telling at a glance whether T&A sent you an MTM or bespoke shirt. The label inside T&A's bespoke shirts -- and as prior authors have noted, they really are bespoke -- is (or at least was) much smaller than the label found in off-the-peg and MTM specimens. Also, unlike the standard label, the bespoke label's entirely in block letters -- that is, without the script "Turnbull & Asser" that you see on the storefront, inside off-the-peg shirts or, for that matter, inside what turned out to be my MTM shirts.

The moral of this story, however, isn't about labels; it's about asking questions. To your credit, you did. The fact that I didn't -- and didn't know any better while buying shirts at Neiman Marcus -- still leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I felt ripped off.

Good luck with your order. Both Simon Hobbs and Robert Salter are great guys and will steer you in the right direction.

Best regards,

You're correct. You must always ask questions.

I think that it would be very unusual for Neiman Marcus to sell pirated Turnbull shirts. My guess is that Turnbull entered a licensing deal with Turnbull so that Neiman would sell custom shirts under the Turnbull name. Neiman would use an USA manufacturer. I am also guessing that Turnbull would not allow the use of its labels in order to differentiate the product, i.e., the genuine Turnbull versus the licensed one. Therefore, it is very likely that the Turnbull fitters in London would have no knowledge of this license since they would not be privy to such in the American market.

My last guess is that you weren't the only customer with a sour taste, and this was a factor in Turnbull terminating the license.

If the foregoing is the case, this is an example of how licensing can dilute the good will and reputation of a luxury product. Pierre Cardin is the textbook example of how agressive licensing has devaluted a once luxury brand to an off-price brand.

[Cufflink79]

Back in 2005 while I was up in Minneapolis, I stopped by the Neiman Marcus there and chatted with a salesman. He told me that it took six months to get a T&A shirt by way of the custom department.

Best Regards,

Cufflink79

[Jones]

Incidentally, Simon Hobbs, formerly the manager of NYC Turnbull, has moved to head its Beverly Hills shop. In a swap, Robert, the former manager of Beverly Hills, is now in charge of NYC.

My friend, I must also regret to inform you that Mr. Robert Salter will, unfortunately, be leaving the NYC TUrnbull and Aser store. I speak with him frequently and he informed me that he wil be going back home to London and will work in the London store for now. Simon Hobbs is, yes, very much now the Beverly Hills store's manager, but Joel Santos is euqally a wonderful guy to work with along with Simon. SImon is always a riot to talk to and a good person to deal with. It just so happened that Robert and I hit it off immediately with the mystique andhte fun of the Bond movies (which he saw in theatres as a boy) and has many good stories about the films, and working for Turnbull and Asser.

However, I've placed orders primarily through Robert over the past few years and I feel I must inform you of his pre-Christmastime departure (which is right about now actually).

Lou is heading up the NYC store.

Robert will reutrn to the Jermyn Street store in London, his home base store. Robert shall be truly missed for those of us here in America whom he leaves behind.

[charle22]

Hi

Earlier this past week I visited T&A in NYC. Mr. Cook spent approximately 0.5 hours explaining their bespoke/mtm program.

1) 6 shirt* minimum order
2) One can modify existing collar and cuff styles or if one chooses to, dictate your personalized collar/cuff style; alteration aspects such as controlling the cuff diameter and the collar height are well within the program’s capabilities
3) T&As standard cuff and collar are non-fused, but the program can accommodate clients who prefer stiffer constructs
4) no muslin, but rather a single shirt is made from one of the client’s six chosen fabrics
5) full payment for the single shirt is charged prior to delivery
6) the client is asked to launder the garment 3 or 4 times and return to T&A for assessment
7) if unsatisfied with fit the shirt is remade with the necessary adjustments and the laundering and assessment processes repeated
once steps 4 or 5 are satisfactorily completed, the remaining five shirts are made based upon the adjusted measurements
9) full payment for the remaining five shirts are charged prior to delivery
10) no minimum order required for future orders


*dizzying array of fabric choices

The great advantage of T&As program is step four is repeated until the client’s fit is acceptably met. Is this bespoke? I’m not certain; there was no mention of a pattern. The assumption here is that one would be fabricated to ensure effective execution of future orders.

[Concordia]

The great advantage of T&As program is step four is repeated until the client’s fit is acceptably met.

Or until they give up and refund the deposit. But everything else you outline is correct.

[Mark Seitelman]

Hi

Earlier this past week I visited T&A in NYC. Mr. Cook spent approximately 0.5 hours explaining their bespoke/mtm program.

1) 6 shirt* minimum order
2) One can modify existing collar and cuff styles or if one chooses to, dictate your personalized collar/cuff style; alteration aspects such as controlling the cuff diameter and the collar height are well within the program’s capabilities
3) T&As standard cuff and collar are non-fused, but the program can accommodate clients who prefer stiffer constructs
4) no muslin, but rather a single shirt is made from one of the client’s six chosen fabrics
5) full payment for the single shirt is charged prior to delivery
6) the client is asked to launder the garment 3 or 4 times and return to T&A for assessment
7) if unsatisfied with fit the shirt is remade with the necessary adjustments and the laundering and assessment processes repeated
once steps 4 or 5 are satisfactorily completed, the remaining five shirts are made based upon the adjusted measurements
9) full payment for the remaining five shirts are charged prior to delivery
10) no minimum order required for future orders


*dizzying array of fabric choices

The great advantage of T&As program is step four is repeated until the client’s fit is acceptably met. Is this bespoke? I’m not certain; there was no mention of a pattern. The assumption here is that one would be fabricated to ensure effective execution of future orders.

It sounds to me like the bespoke program in that there is a six minimum. Has MTM raised its minimum?

When I was a more active Turnbull bespoke customer, about 4-5 years ago, I recall that MTM carried no minimum and that it was a mix and match between standard collar and cuff styles and standard Turnbull bodies. In other words, if you needed a collar 1/2" higher than the standard Turnbull collar, this was beyond the MTM program.

In any event, good luck. I liked my Turnbull experience, and it is a sartorial beacon on 57th Street.