I have been considering the purchase of a black three piece suit which I wish to wear for formal occasions and possibly for less-formal settings such as work without the waistcoat.
I have a relationship with a cutter already whom I will not identify but who may be going freelance in the near future. He has said that in this case he can provide the suit, hand-stitched and hand-cut but made-to-measure rather than bespoke, for around £1500.
I am told that many off-row establishments (such as Graham Brown) can provide me with what amounts to a bespoke garment, for this amount or less.
I have a good relationship with this person and as such it is unlikely that I would go elsewhere but what I would like to know is how an off-row establishment can provide this service at such prices (a 2-piece is approximately £800 at GB) and if I go there what price do I pay in quality of service if any?
Off-row, why so cheap?
"hand-stitched and hand-cut but made-to-measure rather than bespoke"
For starters, I'd rather go full bespoke with less handwork than MTM with it - fit trumps styling. That notwithstanding, my understanding is you can get handmade bespoke from someone like C Antoniou for under £1000.
Turning to the question of price, lets examine three models:
1. A Savile Row tailor will have a shopfront in one of the most expensive retail areas in the world. It will be staffed by (hopefully) cutters at the top of their game, and the garments are tailored in the workrooms downstairs by staff who to all intents and purposes are retained or on a full time salary. Because of the scale of the operation, all employed staff come with additional costs such as employers National Insurance contributions. They probably have a fancy website, attendance at events and a marketing budget.
Your garment will be made to top-quality standards, and the price includes as many fittings as it takes to get it right, together with aftercare including sponging and pressing as you need it. Most non-exotic cloths are included in the price, and all the trimmings will be commensurate with the make.
2. C Antoniou is a one-man (plus a part time assistant) band operating from a vestigial premises on the edges of Central London. The cutting and tailoring is undertaken by Mr Antoniou himself. As best I understand it, everything is handmade. The work is certainly among the best of the off-Row firms, if giving up something at the very margins to SR work.
However, I think you only get one fitting. There's no free aftersales service. The more expensive bunches add to the cost. You get something pretty close to the house style - he's unlikely to want to experiment with something avant garde, and is unlikely to be drawn into a discussion on the minutiae of lapel notch height. He has no website or e-mail.
3. Graham Browne is two cutters and a handful of anciliary staff working from a retail premises from which they measure and cut and perform minor alterations, which is located in a pleasant yet slightly out-of-the way location in the City. However, the make of the garments is outsourced to self-employed outworkers elsewhere in the UK - these have differing specialities / capabilities and the cutter will allocate work out accordingly.
The make is perfectly adequate, but you can easily see the difference compared to an SR suit. They use ready-made shoulder pads. You get one fitting. Only the basic bunches are included in the price. They're probably sufficiently small that if they've structured it correctly the 'staff' will be the owners and take profits out of the business by way of directors dividends. If anything it's a more transparent approach than an SR tailor - GB know how much it costs an outworker to make the garment, and they know the material costs. The balance is their margin.
For starters, I'd rather go full bespoke with less handwork than MTM with it - fit trumps styling. That notwithstanding, my understanding is you can get handmade bespoke from someone like C Antoniou for under £1000.
Turning to the question of price, lets examine three models:
1. A Savile Row tailor will have a shopfront in one of the most expensive retail areas in the world. It will be staffed by (hopefully) cutters at the top of their game, and the garments are tailored in the workrooms downstairs by staff who to all intents and purposes are retained or on a full time salary. Because of the scale of the operation, all employed staff come with additional costs such as employers National Insurance contributions. They probably have a fancy website, attendance at events and a marketing budget.
Your garment will be made to top-quality standards, and the price includes as many fittings as it takes to get it right, together with aftercare including sponging and pressing as you need it. Most non-exotic cloths are included in the price, and all the trimmings will be commensurate with the make.
2. C Antoniou is a one-man (plus a part time assistant) band operating from a vestigial premises on the edges of Central London. The cutting and tailoring is undertaken by Mr Antoniou himself. As best I understand it, everything is handmade. The work is certainly among the best of the off-Row firms, if giving up something at the very margins to SR work.
However, I think you only get one fitting. There's no free aftersales service. The more expensive bunches add to the cost. You get something pretty close to the house style - he's unlikely to want to experiment with something avant garde, and is unlikely to be drawn into a discussion on the minutiae of lapel notch height. He has no website or e-mail.
3. Graham Browne is two cutters and a handful of anciliary staff working from a retail premises from which they measure and cut and perform minor alterations, which is located in a pleasant yet slightly out-of-the way location in the City. However, the make of the garments is outsourced to self-employed outworkers elsewhere in the UK - these have differing specialities / capabilities and the cutter will allocate work out accordingly.
The make is perfectly adequate, but you can easily see the difference compared to an SR suit. They use ready-made shoulder pads. You get one fitting. Only the basic bunches are included in the price. They're probably sufficiently small that if they've structured it correctly the 'staff' will be the owners and take profits out of the business by way of directors dividends. If anything it's a more transparent approach than an SR tailor - GB know how much it costs an outworker to make the garment, and they know the material costs. The balance is their margin.
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Edward Bainbridge
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I haven't too much experience, so those with more may correct me where I'm wrong, but:
- There are off-SR tailors who routinely do three fittings, and others who will if you ask them. And I heard some SR houses, on the other hand, will do two only, (possibly rightfully) claiming this to be enough. While they might not see it as ideal, some might be ready to do away with the final pick-up fitting, too, if you're living in the countryside or abroad, having it delivered by mail and hoping it'll be all right.
- I'm not sure about free after-sales services, but while I tried on a suit, the second chap in the little off-SR shop very nicely repaired the buttonhole of the old coat I came in with. They had offered to when they saw it was rather worn out and shrugged off any attempt to pay for it.
- Depending on the tailor's in question, you might get much or little help in choosing cloths, details etc., and chances are SR tailors are more willing or even able to give advice, while off-SR might be able to do whatever you want, but you'll have to tell them what that is. If you do know, this point is less important, of course.
- Off-SR tailors might not offer all the cloths. I'm not sure what the causes are, by the way. They'll usually let you buy the cloth somewhere else, but it's certainly more agreeable to walk in to the tailor's and start the whole process there. The choice of cloth, by the way, is sometimes reflected in prices you see quoted in articles, where quite unfairly, an off-SR default-cloth suit is compared to an SR suit the material of which costs more than the whole first suit.
- I take it all SR houses charge VAT. Many off-SR tailors do, too (as they should, in my personal opinion), but some might not.
- Finally, probably SR tailors actually do still have more money left of what you pay, after settling rent, salaries, VAT and all, but that's just a guess.
- There are off-SR tailors who routinely do three fittings, and others who will if you ask them. And I heard some SR houses, on the other hand, will do two only, (possibly rightfully) claiming this to be enough. While they might not see it as ideal, some might be ready to do away with the final pick-up fitting, too, if you're living in the countryside or abroad, having it delivered by mail and hoping it'll be all right.
- I'm not sure about free after-sales services, but while I tried on a suit, the second chap in the little off-SR shop very nicely repaired the buttonhole of the old coat I came in with. They had offered to when they saw it was rather worn out and shrugged off any attempt to pay for it.
- Depending on the tailor's in question, you might get much or little help in choosing cloths, details etc., and chances are SR tailors are more willing or even able to give advice, while off-SR might be able to do whatever you want, but you'll have to tell them what that is. If you do know, this point is less important, of course.
- Off-SR tailors might not offer all the cloths. I'm not sure what the causes are, by the way. They'll usually let you buy the cloth somewhere else, but it's certainly more agreeable to walk in to the tailor's and start the whole process there. The choice of cloth, by the way, is sometimes reflected in prices you see quoted in articles, where quite unfairly, an off-SR default-cloth suit is compared to an SR suit the material of which costs more than the whole first suit.
- I take it all SR houses charge VAT. Many off-SR tailors do, too (as they should, in my personal opinion), but some might not.
- Finally, probably SR tailors actually do still have more money left of what you pay, after settling rent, salaries, VAT and all, but that's just a guess.
Thanks for the informative and comprehensive replies. I must apologise for my misspelling of Graham Browne, a result of speaking to people of the off-row options, rather than checking up on their service online or in person.
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