Jermyn St the peking order of shirtmakers

[whittaker]

Is it typical for the Englsh shirtmakers to charge extra to shank the buttons?

I can't be sure of whether it is typical or not but both Turnbull & Asser and Emma Willis were happy to give me shanked buttons and extra think MOP buttons.

[manton]

You know me better than to say that. I won't comment upon the work of a single bespoke maker.

A fair reading of your post would lead most anyone familiar with this debate to conclude that you were, indeed, referring to Paris.

But to offer this option and that option and the other option which, if all were selected, would add up to doubing the price per shirt, is simply misleading.

In the case of Paris, this is the only upcharge that I know of, aside of course from cloth. Everyone charges more for more expensive cloth. No one disputes the fairness of that practice.

Also, this option was not pushed on me; I asked about upgrading the buttons. At $50, it does not come close to doubling the price of the shirts. I assume it is more trouble for them to offer it than not to offer it, as they have to A) carry inventory of a second type of button; and B) disrupt their normal production routine. So wouldn't it be more accurate and more charitable to describe it as a service they provide for interested clients?

[Cantabrigian]

Alex,

I can certainly understand your sentiment and to some extent share your thoughts. I also think that it is laudable that you hold yourself and your product to such high standards.

But I also think that the world of custom clothes (small though it may be) is better off because mid-tier shirtmakers will step up the quality of their product in response to a client’s request. They are obviously happy with what it is they offer but will go beyond that to accommodate a client.

They could certainly stand to manage expectations a bit better before the first deposit is taken but I can understand why they would, as a default, assume that even most bespoke clients don’t really care about how buttons are affixed or the shape of the buttons used.

I suppose that you could argue that any shirt that claims to be bespoke should have or potentially have certain features at no additional cost. But that would likely price them well out of the reach of many people (at least as a percentage of the current level) of people who wish to have a custom shirt.

[stephen]

I must say that I agree with Alex on this. The annoying practice of "itemizing" charges (nickel and diming) has grown increasingly common in recent years. The luxury sector is the last place you expect to encounter this.

I was frankly shocked when I read that Paris Custom Shirts, as well as several English makers do this. In my mind, a bespoke shirtmaker chooses a standard button according to aesthetic and practical criteria (other than cost). These buttons are then sewn on by hand with a proper shank.

Stephen

[Gruto]

I really thought that you were saying that they obviously made an attempt at pattern matching but didn’t do it too exactly. I think that I almost prefer no attempt at pattern matching to the ‘tried but not too hard’ look.

I choose H&H'c classic wide stripes. 3 of 4 shirts match perfect at yoke/sleeve, the fourth is OK.

You bring up an interesting point about house styles. I had assumed (perhaps naively) that any good shirtmaker can produce a very slim fit.

Whatever AK says, he and others have house style. That is fact when humans are in involved. To get the best product I think it is preferable not trying to create your very own shirt but to meet the history of the house.

[Cantabrigian]

Gruto, thank you for the clarification. As I mentioned, I obviously misread your previous post.

The question of house styles among shirtmakers is an interesting one, and incidentally, one that I was thinking about asking last week.

Perhaps it deserves it's own thread as I imagine that it could generate a good deal of discussion.

[tortured-sole]

i've always felt that harvie and hudson should be rated higher than fourth or fifth or lower. the quality of their materials and shirts on offer, and the level of service easily put them in the top three.

I agree totally. I have shirts from all the manufacturers listed in the original post, and many others and I am bemused by the esteem some are held in.

I refer just to RTW shirts, and "standard" line ones at that for those that offer many different grades-

1. T&A
2. Budd
3. Harvie & Hudson
4. New & Lingwood
5. Hilditch & Key
6. Pink
7.Lewin
8. Charles Tyrwhitt.

I would say that I would rate Ede & Ravenscroft considerably better than Pink and downwards, and perhaps equal to H&H. Quite how Hilditch & Key seem to be so high on most people's lists however amazes me. Single needle stitching be damned, that does not on its own a better shirt make. I rate H&H easily as higher, especially when you consider the price, as with their frequent sales they offer by far the best value on Jermyn Street.

Clarke & Dawe shirts are as good as anyone apart from perhaps T&A, although the lack of shell buttons and single needle stitching would put many off. Smyth & Gibson likewise.

My only criticism of H&H is that I find the tails a little short, but they are great value, and the easiest to iron of any I have had.

Tyrwhitt standard shirts are total dung and not worthy of consideration.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Whatever AK says, he and others have house style.

You may speak for others if you wish and they assent. I neither wish nor assent. I'll thank you, with all due respect, not to speak for me.

[Gruto]

Whatever AK says, he and others have house style.

You may speak for others if you wish and they assent. I neither wish nor assent. I'll thank you, with all due respect, not to speak for me.

Sorry, I did generalize a bit much. But I have to say: Artisans have a history, and I think total flexibility is an illusion. And: If I was a shirtmaker, I would be offended if nobody could recognize my "history": way of cutting, stiching etc.

[AlexanderKabbaz]

Sorry, I did generalize a bit much. But I have to say: Artisans have a history, and I think total flexibility is an illusion. And: If I was a shirtmaker, I would be offended if nobody could recognize my "history": way of cutting, stiching etc.

Thank you ... and granted regarding cutting & stitching. I would differ with your original point only on shirt design. It is a very sensitive area these days because so many now work from stock or altered stock patterns and claim the product to be "made in-house bespoke". Were I to open a new Jermyn Street shirt shop these days I think I might call it "Balderdash & Poppycock".

[naturlaut]

I never liked Ascot Chang shirts, but they never got my chest measurement wrong by well over two inches.

Sorry for cutting in like this, but what do find disagreeable with Ascot Chang's shirts? I have made a few, but I haven't worn them much. I made them in Hong Kong and they don't offer any sample/try-on shirts. Obviously, the final fit wasn't perfect, but I am curious if others have similar experiences. Ascot Chang is sort of a Turnbull-type of operation in Hong Kong.

[tortured-sole]

Any chance we could get back to the topic instead of argueing over minor points, no matter how interesting they are to some parties?

[JamesT1]

Tortured-sole, you mentioned that Tyrwitt shirts are "total dung", as I have recently purchased one and seem rather content with it, I was curious as to what you find wrong with them. Granted the one I bought was solid white so there were no pattern matching issues, I have very few complaints, if any.

James

[tortured-sole]

James, compared with all the others mentioned, including Lewin and Hawes & Curtis (which I think have a certain low end charm) they are awful. They are made from poor quality cotton, are impossible to launder and seem almost agricultural in construction compared with the rest. Buy a few H&H shirts and make a comparison.

[JamesT1]

I was actually considering H&H, but as I can only buy them through the internet, of which their website does not carry my size (14 1/2) in there suprisingly well priced rtw line, I thought to continue looking for other shirts. I suppose I should expect more problems will come of the tyrwitt shirts as time goes on, but they are a step up from my old wardrobe.

James