Grande Pignolo

[hectorm]

Raffaell and Nicholosi are both gone.

And talking of Italian tailors in NY, I wonder if any of the LL members recalls the names Rosario Giliberto or Rocco Ciccarelli. I believe that these two are also gone (and I don't even know if I'm being respectful putting their names along those of Raffaell and Nicholosi).
Could we say that nowadays Franco Ercole or Andrea Fascato and Giancarlo Verdelli at Sartoria Ambrosiana continue that tradition?

[old henry]

Gilberto is MTM. Not sure if Rocco is still around. Rocco would say he's giving all hand and not. He and Ercole were "Tailors tailors". They were good if you would cut and have them do the sewing work. Mostly machine. The Gileberto father was Russ. He was good. He personally set Fioravsnti's sleeves. Made beautiful rope shoulder. I hear good things about Ercole. But none in the same league as Raphael. Nicholosi. Don't know the other. MTM I'd wager.
People these days have no idea what true Benchmade is. None. Cut through breast pocket ? Hand sewn shoulder ?Hand sewn sleeves ?Hand applied facing ? the majority on this forum are not aware. It's the way of the world. BenchTailors are not around. 55 hours on one coat is unheard of.

[hectorm]

People these days have no idea what true Benchmade is. None. Cut through breast pocket ? ...the majority on this forum are not aware.

Actually I think I can tell and appreciate when a jacket is cut through the breast pocket (I hope we are talking about the same thing). The shoulder is seamless and the seam is at breast pocket level. Front and back of the jacket is made of a single piece on each side. Right? It must be difficult to cut it so it molds it into perfect shape when it`s put together.
I have a jacket that it´s cut through the breast pocket but it´s a cheat because it also has a second seam at the top of the shoulder.

[old henry]

Mr. Alden, help me out here.

[uppercase]

I agree Hectorm, that does sound like a "cheat" and could not be called a real bench made coat.
And the second seam at the shoulder … well, I don't know, but let's see what Alden and OH say about that.

Incidentally, I was in the market today looking for pine nuts to make a nice pesto, using genoa basil.

It freaked me out a little bit to see the nuts labeled as " pignoli.


This reminded me of our thread here and made me wonder if maybe Pignoli is the plural of Pignolo.

I thought maybe this matter could be following me around a little bit more than necessary, though probably it was a subconscious thought.

But maybe our Italian speakers here could advise if Grande Pignolo literally means Big Pine Nut.

[BESPOKE62]

People these days have no idea what true Benchmade is. BenchTailors are not around. 55 hours on one coat is unheard of.

We sometime conflate bespoke and bench made; they are kissing cousins but not fungible terms. A true bench made suit is made by a master tailor; defined in the strictest sense as the owner of the firm, who is also a skilled tailor/cutter. He and he alone, cuts the garment, does the fittings and finishes the suit by hand. A true bench made suit is a rarity and difficult to find in this day in this day and time. But, this is just my humble opinion.

[alden]

But maybe our Italian speakers here could advise if Grande Pignolo literally means Big Pine Nut.

It is exactly like in English where the same word can have different meanings. The word "nut" can mean a cashew, macadamia, almond or it can mean a "nut" like a Grande Pignolo.

[alden]

Whenever largely industrial processes are used to speed up the making of a product, its essential nature or quality is changed. High end “gourmet” frozen dinners and a dish slaved over for days by a great French chef are both food. Leave it to the consumer to know and pay for the difference. So a coat that takes 2 hours to make and the one that takes 55 hours to make by hand are both tailored clothing. Leave it to the consumer to know and pay for the difference, except that in this case the frozen dinner is branded, labeled, and served up just like the chef’s painstaking work. Its all “bespoke” (or what we call here “besmoke.”)

For someone who has never eaten a real meal, the stuff they consume is just fine. And so it is with tailoring. If you have never worn a jacket made by hand, its pretty hard to feel the difference between "bench made" and something made in a factory, even if that factory is fancifully called an “atelier."

A truly hand made suit or shoe has a very distinctive look, comfort level and feel, and it should also have a very different price tag. You have to decide if the difference in look and feel merits the difference in price tag. But what I have been militant about from the very first post I ever wrote on the net fifteen years ago entitled “First Let’s Define Bespoke” to this very day, are the bespooks who traffic in besmoke to the detriment of real craftsmen. Its fraud and I do not like it. The consumer is spending a lot of money for a product that is a fake. Buy the “Star of India” if you can or not, but do not call cubic zirconia a diamond.

On the other hand, there are very responsible tailoring houses who do clearly distinguish the quality levels or try to do so, but the true benchmade component is pretty much a thing of the past even for them. There are few people who know how to do it. And many of them realize it is not feasible commercially anymore. Why engage hours of a craftsman’s time to make a garment you will have to sell at a very low margin? When using the same hours you can make more margin with other products. I understand margin is everything and the cost of running a clothing business is daunting. But none of that justifies the cynical sleight of hand with clients that is all too common.

https://vimeo.com/8243307

Watch the video I did with Mr. HItchcock, former MD of Anderson & Sheppard. In it he explains in great detail why hand work is so important, so much more comfortable to wear etc.. And in that piece he decries the fact that most Savile Row garments are made by machine these days..."not better than a factory." Old Henry is writing and saying the same things. Every time a machine replaces a human hand, there is a price to be paid in terms of comfort and beauty. Its a fact. And I am very happy to have recorded this interview and have another great, traditional tailor back up what Old Henry has been teaching us here for ages.

I have written these things for decades now, and it is as hard for me to continue to explain these simple truths as it must be for you to hear them. Brainwashing, by brands and bloggers, is hard to wash out and a fool and his money are always parted so I leave you with a final and definitive caveat emptor that will fall as always on deaf ears.

Cheers

[aston]

There is a tailor operating on the outskirts of Leeds, UK, who continues to make everything himself, by hand, with no use of outworkers. You can spend a whole day watching him build your stuff if you choose to.

[bond_and_beyond]

Isn’t «benchmade» an Americanism? I don’t think it is a term much used in the UK. And assuming that in order for a jacket to be «benchmade» it must be cut, sewn and finished by the same master tailor, then Savile Row even 100 years ago did not make «benchmade» suits. They had cutters, coat makers, trouser makers, finishers etc. I also think they made to different levels depending on type of suit (lounge suits getting less handwork than dinner suits etc).

For me I think the term «benchmade» confuses the subject a bit as it mostly relates to Italian «mom and pop» shops (and their US counterparts run by Italian immigrants), and not the SR / British tailoring tradition (though there are / were a few «made by one guy» shops in the UK also).

BB

[alden]

And assuming that in order for a jacket to be «benchmade» it must be cut, sewn and finished by the same master tailor, then Savile Row even 100 years ago did not make «benchmade» suits.

I am less concerned about how many hands work on the clothing as long as it is made by hand.

Benchmade is an English word, not an Americanism, and is a synonym for hand made, hand crafted or artisan made goods. It is often used in connection with classic English handmade furniture, but it is used to describe a vast array of handmade products.

Listen again to the MD of AS, he does not represent an Italian or Immigrant mom and pop shop. Watch the first four minutes or so of the video, he says the same things Old Henry does. He says "and all the others do it by machine which is terrible really..(3:18)"

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

I agree with that, but A&S is certainly more «industrial» than what I gather «benchmade» is defined as in this thread.

And I haven’t heard benchmade used about tailoring in the UK, in the same way as they don’t use custom about bespoke suits.

If benchmade is only about making most of the product by hand, regardless of how many people are involved in the process, then I get your point. But it seemed to me that the term went beyond that as to mean «made on the bench», ie made by a single craftsman.

BB

[old henry]

Bond you're right. In its purest form Benchmade,as BESPOKE62 says, is one man at a bench using old world tools and hand methods. Cutting the pattern and hand making the suit.
But if several tailors in a shop are using these methods together to make a suit , as Mr Alden says, it's here nor there, really. But BESPOKE62 is on the money.

[alden]

I agree with that, but A&S is certainly more «industrial»

Not in the least. From what I have seen their processes are by hand as demonstrated by the video (watch the video )

I have always been an admirer of A&S and its alumni. And my own tailor was an ex A&S. They are the clothes I have worn a good deal of my life. And I have to say that once you get used to wearing hand sewn clothes, it is pretty hard to go back. They are just so comfortable, flattering and easy to wear.

I suspect the term is not much used in marketing for UK tailoring because it would have been redundant back in the glory days of the Row because any client rightly assumed the clothes were benchmade...i.e. by hand. But the term is still very commonly used in UK shoemaking and many other crafts.

Cheers

[bond_and_beyond]

I suspect the term is not much used in marketing for UK tailoring because it would have been redundant back in the glory days of the Row because any client rightly assumed the clothes were benchmade...i.e. by hand. But the term is still very commonly used in UK shoemaking and many other crafts.

Cheers

I am not sure that is quite correct, as for example Crockett & Jones divides their lines between "benchgrade" and "handgrade", where the former is the lower cost, more machine made option (I think they recently renamed it to "Main Line").

BB