English suts give backache - according to Tom Ford

[Costi]

Costi, please.

Zeitgeist, I share your view about innovation in general and I believe your well-reasoned arguments are worthy of a better cause than TF. What do you make of his "argument" against SR tailoring, that it causes back pain - at "face value", as well as "read between the lines"?

[zeitgeist]

With the (massive) caveat that this is my personal interpretation of the entire article in The Rake (of which only a tiny part was posted here):

I do not think that when TF refers to 'backache' after a day of wearing his SR suit he means it to be caused literally by the SR-made suit - as in the jacket was so physically tight/uncomfortable/whatever that it literally caused muscle spasm. At best, an unlikely scenario, especially given that he patronised A&S, not exactly known for a closely-hewn fitting.

I am thinking more that he is referring to the SR experience, or more specifically his difficulties/disagreements with the SR experience (touched upon in the article), and the resulting product not being fully to his liking. He does not feel completely comfortable in his SR suit, as it is a compromise of what he wanted - with the A&S 'house style' being at least partly forced upon him - and he may or may not have adopted an unnatural posture to compensate for this or just been unusually tense. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that he is not comfortable. To varying extents, we all like certain styles/cuts not because they actually 'fit' our bodies 'better' but because we feel comfortable in them.

I think that it is this he is referring to.

To elaborate further with a personal anecdote, I have jackets/suits in which I apparently unconsciously adopt a more upright, proper and 'professional' manner and posture, and jackets/suits in which I adopt a more relaxed and even... louche attitude. Some jackets make me feel like a young virile man who is ready to go out and... sow wild oats, while others are more evocative of more sedentary or cerebral pursuits.

Think about the situations/scenarios in which an A&S suit is usually thought of being worn, and then consider the sort of lifestyle TF pursues - the disparity is obvious. Does a homosexual Texas-born American who has spent nearly his entire adult life in fashion, an industry which places 'change' on a pedestal, really strike you as your typical A&S customer, let alone one who would feel comfortable in A&S? TF (as he points out in the article) was attracted to A&S initially by its history and heritage, 2 things reflected in its product which the company is, at best, less than enthusiastic to compromise on. He acknowledged these as its strengths, but also realised that it was precisely these factors which were to some potential customers, its weakness as well.

Of course, like I said earlier, YMMV. It is certainly a cryptic statement, and I personally have no idea why he went to A&S when perhaps some other SR house (Huntsman?) would have been more suited to what I perceive to be his tastes.

[alden]

Two designers known primarily for woman’s fashion are trying to make a mark in high level menswear, Armani and Ford. To achieve their mission both have chosen to disparage Savile Row and bespoke tailoring in general.

You can bet that these two men have the very best publicists that money can buy and the attacks are shock talk designed to attract attention. I am sure they were directed to talk less about their own fashion and its merits (of which there is little to talk about) and simply layer napalm.

Fine, all is fair in war, but at the end of the day you have to produce goods. And these goods have to appeal to someone for what they are as opposed to what they are not. Time will tell. Maybe in a hundred years, someone will be recalling the great dandies, artists and wits that gowned themselves in Fords.

I somehow doubt it.

Cheers

Michael Alden

[zeitgeist]

Two designers known primarily for woman’s fashion are trying to make a mark in high level menswear, Armani and Ford. To achieve their mission both have chosen to disparage Savile Row and bespoke tailoring in general.

Really?

TF: "I went to have clothes made at Anderson & Sheppard, which is one of the best tailoring firms in existence and has dressed so many of the world's most elegant men. I worked with the head cutter John Hitchcock, whom I liked very much."

Armani: [describing Savile Row] "a bad English comedy... a melodrama lost in the past" and that their tailors "...had a restricted idea of how a suit is made. The suit can only be made in this shape, with these fabric..."

The former is a straight up rebuttal of your point. The latter is a rather blunt pointing out of a very valid phenomenon on SR (and the occasional non-SR tailor for that matter of course).

[alden]

The former is a straight up rebuttal of your point. The latter is a rather blunt pointing out of a very valid phenomenon on SR (and the occasional non-SR tailor for that matter of course).

It wouldn't be a particularly new strategy to praise an enemy before inserting the blade, hmm?

As regards Armani, our member from Italy Mr. Carpu informs that he had equally indelicate remarks about the Italian tailoring establishment. Has the entire tailoring world had it all wrong for so long..? Maybe.

My general comment is that they should both focus on what they do, make an argument for it that is appealing and let the market decide.

Cheers

Michael

[zeitgeist]

My general comment is that they should both focus on what they do, make an argument for it that is appealing and let the market decide.

An admirable sentiment, with which I agree fully.

Now, what about bespoke tailors, bespoke enthusiasts or home sewers disparaging RTW clothing or their designers?

I kid, I kid!!

[alden]

Now, what about bespoke tailors, bespoke enthusiasts or home sewers disparaging RTW clothing or their designers?

I agree.

I think this is more a discussion of form rather than substance. I have never seen an Armani Bespoke or a Tom Ford RTW, so I am at a loss to render any judgment about them. What I have commented on is the maladroit nature of their communications. My grandfather taught me "never to give my custom to someone who does not know how to behave." Its a very good idea. For all the years I have been around the Row, where there are blood curdling rivalries (even within houses and among cutters), the form has always been in harmony with the prestige of the offering. Old hat, worn out habits passed down from grandfathers.

The Italians are much more fun in this regards, though when it comes down to it they have too much respect for their craft to publicly show disrespect for their fellow craftsmen.

I hope that the LL, on the arguments of substance, remains a celebration of the diversity of style, any style and all style. I have no prejudice about RTW except for the fact that I cannot wear it well due to my wretched body. I think a man with a good figure can be finely attired in RTW if he knows how to dress. And a man can look a ragamuffin in bespoke if he does not know the art. (I think I have written this a few thousand times, please forgive me.)

Moreover, I believe that those of us who are impassioned by masculine style and elegance are a small but great fraternity. There are so many more things that unite us than divide. Positive thoughts are elegant ones. Niggling and snark is for boys and old women.

Cheers

Michael

[couch]

I think a man with a good figure can be finely attired in RTW if he knows how to dress.

I endorse the sentiment but would make the small emendation that a man with a "body proportioned to the standards of the RTW maker" can be finely attired. Many a man with a good figure (including a number of models) cannot properly wear most RTW. This is more true than ever today, at least in the U.S. The kind of man who inspired the AA/Esky artists--trim of waist, wide of shoulder, erect of upper back, and with unusually long legs (even allowing for the standard extra head's height of most fashion illustration), would be out of luck. The waist would be too wide, the sleeve pitch too forward, the front balance too short, and the trouser legs too narrow by the time they reached his shoes. That's just to start.

To repeat, however, your basic point that a man who fits the RTW maker's standard proportions and figuration can be well dressed is unexceptionable.

[alden]

To repeat, however, your basic point that a man who fits the RTW maker's standard proportions and figuration can be well dressed is unexceptionable.

Yes, I once gave advice to young men that they should go to every shop they could, with a mirror (to see what the sales people won't want them to see) and try on RTW suits until they found one that fit them acceptably well. With some alterations a lot of men can find something very workable this way. To me the real problem is the quality of the cloth used in many RTW clothes. There is nothing to be done about that issue.

Michael

[marcelo]

...To me the real problem is the quality of the cloth used in many RTW clothes. There is nothing to be done about that issue.

Michael

Another point which has become clear to me is the interlining problem - the prospect of finding a coat with anything other than a thermo-fusible interlining seems to be very slim.

[Costi]

Another point which has become clear to me is the interlining problem - the prospect of finding a coat with anything other than a thermo-fusible interlining seems to be very slim.

...or else the price tag will make you wonder why not go bespoke.

[Costi]

With the (massive) caveat that this is my personal interpretation of the entire article in The Rake (of which only a tiny part was posted here):
I do not think that when TF refers to 'backache' after a day of wearing his SR suit he means it to be caused literally by the SR-made suit - as in the jacket was so physically tight/uncomfortable/whatever that it literally caused muscle spasm. At best, an unlikely scenario, especially given that he patronised A&S, not exactly known for a closely-hewn fitting.
I am thinking more that he is referring to the SR experience, or more specifically his difficulties/disagreements with the SR experience (touched upon in the article), and the resulting product not being fully to his liking. He does not feel completely comfortable in his SR suit, as it is a compromise of what he wanted - with the A&S 'house style' being at least partly forced upon him - and he may or may not have adopted an unnatural posture to compensate for this or just been unusually tense. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that he is not comfortable. To varying extents, we all like certain styles/cuts not because they actually 'fit' our bodies 'better' but because we feel comfortable in them.
I think that it is this he is referring to.
To elaborate further with a personal anecdote, I have jackets/suits in which I apparently unconsciously adopt a more upright, proper and 'professional' manner and posture, and jackets/suits in which I adopt a more relaxed and even... louche attitude. Some jackets make me feel like a young virile man who is ready to go out and... sow wild oats, while others are more evocative of more sedentary or cerebral pursuits.
Think about the situations/scenarios in which an A&S suit is usually thought of being worn, and then consider the sort of lifestyle TF pursues - the disparity is obvious. Does a homosexual Texas-born American who has spent nearly his entire adult life in fashion, an industry which places 'change' on a pedestal, really strike you as your typical A&S customer, let alone one who would feel comfortable in A&S? TF (as he points out in the article) was attracted to A&S initially by its history and heritage, 2 things reflected in its product which the company is, at best, less than enthusiastic to compromise on. He acknowledged these as its strengths, but also realised that it was precisely these factors which were to some potential customers, its weakness as well.
Of course, like I said earlier, YMMV. It is certainly a cryptic statement, and I personally have no idea why he went to A&S when perhaps some other SR house (Huntsman?) would have been more suited to what I perceive to be his tastes.

Zeitgeist, an admirable effort that I did not anticipate with my rather rhetorical question.
Now, do you think I could benefit of a similar apologetic exegesis of "rags"?

One more thing:

This evening I saw someone in a Tom Ford suit. First time I have seen one in the wild. His date was wearing a gold Lamé suit. Both had no ties and shirts undone two or three buttons, just like they were supposed to. It was very cute.

Does a homosexual Texas-born American who has spent nearly his entire adult life in fashion, an industry which places 'change' on a pedestal, really strike you as your typical A&S customer, let alone one who would feel comfortable in A&S?

Thankfully, taste is hardly a function of sexuality:




If anything, sexuality may determine a choice of style, as in dressing to fit a character, when there there is something to demonstrate and dress is part of the agenda.

[carl browne]

It interests me that the two main impediments to bespoke have always been price and convenience. But now the best in RTW is roughly the same price. Likewise, with the advent of email, digital photography, super efficient air travel and shipping, even those who have to rely on traveling tailors don't have much to complain about. Once they have the fit well established, turnaround time can be as little as three months. I can easily imagine it taking a month to get fitted for RTW.

Anyone who doesn't have a spare hour or two once a quarter to spend with a bespoke tailor might want to think about reorganizing priorities. It's one of the great pleasures in life. And the return on the investment of time and money is considerable. I always feel a little bit taller, thinner, stand a little straighter, better equipped for the things life throws my way.

C

[alden]

Is oiling your chest hair a prerequisite to the Ford look? I have never seen chest hair oil at Trumpers, have you? There may be a market for the stuff, if the fad persists a few more months.

[alden]

Anyone who doesn't have a spare hour or two once a quarter to spend with a bespoke tailor might want to think about reorganizing priorities. It's one of the great pleasures in life. And the return on the investment of time and money is considerable. I always feel a little bit taller, thinner, stand a little straighter, better equipped for the things life throws my way.

I have to agree with you...well said.

Michael